KenC's T/R 10 years late

[KenC]

True love is just like luck, you cannot plan for it, it just happens.

The thing that has always bothered me about this process is how unnatural it usually is.  Most people involved in this process put the cart before the horse and are driven by their ultimate goal of marriage rather than to allow a relationhip just to develop and take it's own course.  I have always thought that our relationship grew in a very natural way in spite of the very unnatural enviornment from which it came.

Take a good look at the men and women invoved in all the marriage agencies.  Most are motivated by the end goal of getting married.  There is no boy meets girl and they find a mutual attraction.  A friendship develops.  That friendship turns into love.  Because of that friendship and love, the couple marries.  Instead it is that both sides have a spouse vacancy they need to fill.  All the criteria for this vacancy is thought out in advance in a claculated attempt to secure a spouse.  How much more unnatural can you get?  The ultimate goal of getting married is the priority for most and love and friendship are secondary issues.  At best, most just hope that love will develop sometime later in the relationship.  IMO the reason so many of these marriages fail is because the couple simply is not in love when they marry.
Many of the questions above relate to "did Lena or you think about this or that would work once you got married?" and the simple answer is neither of us gave any thought to marriage from the start of our relationship.  There were no calculations.  There was no list of criteria involved.  Neither of us were driven to be married.  We were just a man and a woman who happened to meet by circumstance with no preconceived agendas.  We both throughly enjoyed talking to each other.  Those conversations turned into a friendship and a mutual respect.  That friendship and mutual respect eventually evolved into love.  It all was a very natural development, never forced or calculated and it was far from being planned.
KenC

[Lily]

    A friendship develops.  That friendship turns into love.  Because of that friendship and love, the couple marries. 

  At best, most just hope that love will develop sometime later in the relationship.  IMO the reason so many of these marriages fail is because the couple simply is not in love when they marry.
 

you just touched on an interesting development that I tried to show above.

You said that friendship turns into love... it looks like it has been your case. How long did it take to you?  Curious to read about this milestone in your relationships.

My personal observation would be that frienship seldom turns into love. Either it happens very quicky, almost at the same time, or it never happens.

More than that, I have experienced cases when love turns into friendship.

KenC, you really pointed out a very interesting issue that seems to be crucial for relationships. IMHO that may depend on how strong the instincts are in the individual personality....

[pitbull]

Many of the questions above relate to "did Lena or you think about this or that would work once you got married?" and the simple answer is neither of us gave any thought to marriage from the start of our relationship.  There were no calculations.  There was no list of criteria involved.  Neither of us were driven to be married.  We were just a man and a woman who happened to meet by circumstance with no preconceived agendas.  We both throughly enjoyed talking to each other.  Those conversations turned into a friendship and a mutual respect.  That friendship and mutual respect eventually evolved into love.  It all was a very natural development, never forced or calculated and it was far from being planned.
KenC

KenC,

Thank you for a very interesting thread, but this last post of yours I simply don't buy. You're saying your situation was different, very natural, never calculated or planned, and neither you nor Lena had any thoughts of being married. However, you found Lena on a marriage website. In 1998 internet dating, especially international wasn't commonplace as it is now. a girl of 21 joins a marriage agency, and markets herself to foreign man as looking for a husband. She met several men, and you as one of them, as potential husbands. She happened to fall in love with you. The whole endeavor was in order to find a husband, and there should have been part of "plan and calculation", used however wisely.

Maybe I misread your post, but it gives a feeling that you put your relationship above others (of people who met through agencies), while this is exactly what you did yourself. 

[Jazzyclassy]

KenC,

Thank you for a very interesting thread, but this last post of yours I simply don't buy. You're saying your situation was different, very natural, never calculated or planned, and neither you nor Lena had any thoughts of being married. However, you found Lena on a marriage website. In 1998 internet dating, especially international wasn't commonplace as it is now. a girl of 21 joins a marriage agency, and markets herself to foreign man as looking for a husband. She met several men, and you as one of them, as potential husbands. She happened to fall in love with you. The whole endeavor was in order to find a husband, and there should have been part of "plan and calculation", used however wisely.

Maybe I misread your post, but it gives a feeling that you put your relationship above others (of people who met through agencies), while this is exactly what you did yourself. 

 

[KenC]

KenC,

Thank you for a very interesting thread, but this last post of yours I simply don't buy. You're saying your situation was different, very natural, never calculated or planned, and neither you nor Lena had any thoughts of being married. However, you found Lena on a marriage website. In 1998 internet dating, especially international wasn't commonplace as it is now. a girl of 21 joins a marriage agency, and markets herself to foreign man as looking for a husband. She met several men, and you as one of them, as potential husbands. She happened to fall in love with you. The whole endeavor was in order to find a husband, and there should have been part of "plan and calculation", used however wisely.

Maybe I misread your post, but it gives a feeling that you put your relationship above others (of people who met through agencies), while this is exactly what you did yourself. 

pitbull,
If I gave you the impression that I was putting down people that used an agency, please forgive me, as that was not my intention.  I have long advocated that men use "marriage agencies" as "introduction agencies" and allow any potential development of a relationship just bloom in a more natural way.

Marriage to a foreign man was never a priority to Lena.  In fact she never seriously considered leaving Russia until after she met me.  To this day, Lena would prefer to live in Russia.  She had joined LTP on a lark at 18 with a few of her friends from the university.  They thought it would be interesting and she could practice her English skills.

From my side of things, I was not looking to get married either.  I happened to meet a woman that I wanted to know better listed on an marriage agency site.  In our many phone conversations we were very clear to each other on these points of views.

There are many members here with successful long term marriages that had a more traditional courtship as opposed to going on a "wife hunt."  Do you not think it is unnatural for men and women to look for true love through a list of criteria that they each developed on their own?  I have never once heard of a man saying that he is going bar hopping tonight in search of a wife.   Or a woman going to the mall to look around for a husband.  Maybe the ultimate goal is to get married, and I can accept the idea of a calculated introduction, but IMO marriage agencies foster and endorse the concept of wife shopping which again IMO skew the realities of any hope for a natural development of a relationship.

I will cover some more of my thoughts on this in my next segment of my trip report.
KenC

[myrddin]

Well, Ken, you did meet through a website (whatever reasons got you there), you just had a good attitude when you met *her*.  Romance is about a special connection, however you find each other.   I certainly agree "introduction agency" is a better approach and term than "marriage agency".  I'm not looking for a wife just for the sake of having a wife, for me marriage is a natural progression that comes after meeting the right woman.  And I do find your story inspirational

To me, it makes perfect sense to look for people who have similar goals.  Meeting through other channels, you might not know about important things like someone's attitude towards marriage, religious beliefs, desire for children, and so on, for some time.  Though it's tricksome to meet someone without being blinded by hopes and dreams (and right now I can only imagine what it's like to travel 6,000 miles for that meeting), internet dating can help with knowing about those "similar interests" from the start.

[KenC]

Well, Ken, you did meet through a website (whatever reasons got you there), you just had a good attitude when you met *her*.  Romance is about a special connection, however you find each other.   I certainly agree "introduction agency" is a better approach and term than "marriage agency".  I'm not looking for a wife just for the sake of having a wife, for me marriage is a natural progression that comes after meeting the right woman.  And I do find your story inspirational

To me, it makes perfect sense to look for people who have similar goals.  Meeting through other channels, you might not know about important things like someone's attitude towards marriage, religious beliefs, desire for children, and so on, for some time.  Though it's tricksome to meet someone without being blinded by hopes and dreams (and right now I can only imagine what it's like to travel 6,000 miles for that meeting), internet dating can help with knowing about those "similar interests" from the start.

myrddin,
You seem to have a very healthy attitude toward this venture.  While I recognise that one's "criteria" is important, as well as their ultimate "goal", it is just too easy to overlook the necessity for love.  It is not a perfect world and there is no perfect way to do this.  I only want people to think about love too and not just their check list of attributes they seek in a spouse.  It doesn't need to be as clinical as some make it out to be. Best of luck to you and thank you for the compliment.
KenC

[groovlstk]

IMO the reason so many of these marriages fail is because the couple simply is not in love when they marry.

Such a simple truth yet guys will bend themselves sideways, inside out, and upside down when explaining their failed relationship with a RW, claiming any reason BUT the fact that the "love" they shared was a pipedream.

OK, chop chop. On with the TR, Ken. 

[mspanky]

Such a simple truth yet guys will bend themselves sideways, inside out, and upside down when explaining their failed relationship with a RW, claiming any reason BUT the fact that the "love" they shared was a pipedream.

OK, chop chop. On with the TR, Ken. 

  This I agree with. I've heard guys make all sorts of excuses about break-up of marriages to foreign women. Few will admit she was never into him in a romantic way and he had to  always initiate the affection.

   Some of the guys I personally know and it was blatant the woman was not into him at all. But most guys will never admit though for him it was lust and the attention of a woman who would not give him the time of day here. It wasn't mutual lust(at least they would both have a reason to blindly marry) more of a toleration of his affections. She was seeing him as a better alternative to no man at all and no chance to come to the U.S. for a better life.Struggling in life without an end to the struggle is motivation enough for many women to marry a man they have little affection for. Especially if you're living in a competitive macho society with few decent men who want to marry.

[Misha]

Such a simple truth yet guys will bend themselves sideways, inside out, and upside down when explaining their failed relationship with a RW, claiming any reason BUT the fact that the "love" they shared was a pipedream.

OK, chop chop. On with the TR, Ken. 

I would argue that even the "successful" men will edit their personal histories to ensure a most favorable storyline. The women will always have had a great deal of choice, they did not want to leave but they happened to meet such a wonderful westerner who simply swept them off of their feet with their charm, good looks, charisma and etc.... It is the internet after all, we can all be tall, handsome, good looking, extremely rich and simply a fantastic catch desired by all women who happened to meet a wonderful woman in Russia 

[Gator]

KenC,

Do you not think it is unnatural for men and women to look for true love through a list of criteria that they each developed on their own?

This confuses me.  Call it unnatural if you wish, I think it is smart to use criteria to select RW with whom to meet.  

When embarking on my first trip, I did not select women by throwing darts at a wall with a 1000 photos.  Time was limited so I used criteria to narrow the list to women who interested me.  If they did not have beauty, brains, sense of humor and a couple of other qualities, I was not interested.  

It is the same with meeting women at a bar or in an elevator.  When talking to an American woman I met by accident, I use the same criteria as with RW to decide if I want to know more about her.  The difference is that in an elevator or bar, it is not planned, it is done one woman at a time, and I may not test all criteria (especially in my younger days  ).  

I assert that a man uses criteria whether written on a list or done intuitively.  And a woman has her criteria (and frequently she decided she did not want to know more about me ).

[Gator]

KenC,

IMO the reason so many of these marriages fail is because the couple simply is not in love when they marry.

Okay, we agree here. 

True love takes time, for which there is no substitute.  A relationship may start high-voltage, yet to endure it needs to evolve contemplatively into something more profound with many dimensions, and friendship is an absolute necessity.

[dneid]

Hey, All,
Great thread!!!  Ken, it is great to finally hear about your adventures.  I have enjoyed your posts so far.  Now, do not leave me hanging on like that evil tease, Taz (Taz, you know I am kidding, right?  Please do not put JD on my trail.).  Keep the TR coming.

[Blues Fairy]

My personal observation would be that frienship seldom turns into love. Either it happens very quicky, almost at the same time, or it never happens.

I'd say friendship develops easier than love under the restrictions of a long-distance relationship.  Pheromones don't yet travel via DSL lines.
But when people finally meet and friendship is already in place, there's already a solid basis for something better.  So yes, I do buy Ken's story.  

Our story is very similar, only we had 3 years of epistolary friendship before the first face-to-face.

[myrddin]

myrddin,
You seem to have a very healthy attitude toward this venture.
KenC

Thanks, Ken, that means a lot.  I'd like to think that most of the happily married people on this forum have that type of attitude.

It is the same with meeting women at a bar or in an elevator.   

I assert that a man uses criteria whether written on a list or done intuitively.  And a woman has her criteria (and frequently she decided she did not want to know more about me ).

Maybe I'm weird, but when I see someone on an elevator or in a mall all I know is A) she looks good and B) she's probably not agoraphobic.  That's all good stuff, but it's not enough for me to generate real interest.  (Of course, with long distance communication face to face meeting is still crucial, unless you're looking for a pen pal.)

[KenC]

KenC,

This confuses me.  Call it unnatural if you wish, I think it is smart to use criteria to select RW with whom to meet.  

When embarking on my first trip, I did not select women by throwing darts at a wall with a 1000 photos.  Time was limited so I used criteria to narrow the list to women who interested me.  If they did not have beauty, brains, sense of humor and a couple of other qualities, I was not interested.  

It is the same with meeting women at a bar or in an elevator.  When talking to an American woman I met by accident, I use the same criteria as with RW to decide if I want to know more about her.  The difference is that in an elevator or bar, it is not planned, it is done one woman at a time, and I may not test all criteria (especially in my younger days  ).  

I assert that a man uses criteria whether written on a list or done intuitively.  And a woman has her criteria (and frequently she decided she did not want to know more about me ).

Gator,
I understand what you are saying here.  We all have our "criteria" in our subconcious minds and have our own way of "measuring up" the potential of the opposite sex.  What I am trying (not very well, I guess) to say is that when the methodology becomes more important than the natural instincts that we all have, it is not such a good thing.  I have seen some men here treat this process like a science experiment and forget all about the emotional side of things.  Some where, some how one must allow for the emotional side of the relationsip to grow.
KenC

[Admin]

Gator,
I understand what you are saying here.  We all have our "criteria" in our subconcious minds and have our own way of "measuring up" the potential of the opposite sex.  What I am trying (not very well, I guess) to say is that when the methodology becomes more important than the natural instincts that we all have, it is not such a good thing.  I have seen some men here treat this process like a science experiment and forget all about the emotional side of things.  Some where, some how one must allow for the emotional side of the relationsip to grow.
KenC

What you are REALLY trying to say - without saying it is - you are a hopeless romantic quite unlike the gruff and crusty exterior you sometimes display. And my guess is that Lena saw that through your earlier correspondence, and then in person - and it is/was a large part of what endeared you to her.

Lena's got an account here. Would she be willing to share with us some of her thoughts which were going on in parallel at that time? Would be a fascinating comparison. Maybe after you finish telling your T/R - although, I have to admit, I find the prospect of reading her accounting of events in parallel with your accounting of events as quite a savory possibility - if she is so willing.

- Dan

[Serebro]

KenC, you say your Lena is a student now, has she worked anywhere since her arrival to the USA?!

[Photo Guy]

Dan wrote:
What you are REALLY trying to say - without saying it is - you are a hopeless romantic quite unlike the gruff and crusty exterior you sometimes display.

Yeah Dan, that idea does ring true, ...and the exterior is quite thick at times.
And maybe he's not as 'hopeless' a romantic as the rest of us. <grin>

Gabaub wrote:
I would argue that even the "successful" men will edit their personal histories to ensure a most favorable storyline. The women will always have had a great deal of choice, they did not want to leave but they happened to meet such a wonderful westerner who simply swept them off of their feet with their charm, good looks, charisma and etc.... It is the internet after all, we can all be tall, handsome, good looking, extremely rich and simply a fantastic catch desired by all women who happened to meet a wonderful woman in Russia  Wink


Right- I don't mean to disparage the members here, who are married, but I think there
is probably a wide range of degrees of 'success' represented. Okay, a guy may have
reached that goal of marriage, but we can't see if it's 'bliss' or hell. I apologize
for those times I've gone into my 1960's mode of 'question authority', but
it's a mode I'm comfortable with. It doesn't mean I won't digest the info
or gruff opinion.  A funny/interesting/horrible movie I saw recently,
was 'Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?'  In that story, you have two
psycho-monsters who are perfectly suited for each other. They thrive on
the tension, turmoil, and combat, that they provide for each other.

Ken, I can relate to the 'bed' (flat) that you've described.<grin> The impossible bed
at my hotel in Kiev was designed for a short person, so I removed the mattress,
threw it on the small room's floor, and crashed.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Well, KenC, if you were not head over heals with Lena after like 3-4 calls then I would say that is strange. Maybe you were just cautious not to get too far and trying to conceal it, but admit, you probably flew on your wings to Tver, and you did have some agenda, desire and some plans, which is good.  I remember even in some other posts several months ago you were describing how on earth you would be 'dumb' NOT to like her and NOT to try this with her....I completely understand. It's just so funny how you say NO, no, no,  we didn't plan it, we didn't want to marry, we were not looking  hehehe....    

Lena is very busy, guys, she is gnawing a granite of a science, if you heard that Russian phrase. 

[KenC]

What you are REALLY trying to say - without saying it is - you are a hopeless romantic quite unlike the gruff and crusty exterior you sometimes display. And my guess is that Lena saw that through your earlier correspondence, and then in person - and it is/was a large part of what endeared you to her.

Lena's got an account here. Would she be willing to share with us some of her thoughts which were going on in parallel at that time? Would be a fascinating comparison. Maybe after you finish telling your T/R - although, I have to admit, I find the prospect of reading her accounting of events in parallel with your accounting of events as quite a savory possibility - if she is so willing.

- Dan

SHHHHH Dan!  I'm a mean MF'er from Detroit and don't you ever forget it!!
KenC

[KenC]

KenC, you say your Lena is a student now, has she worked anywhere since her arrival to the USA?!

Serebro,
Lena is now concentrating on her school and going full time.  In the past she has worked in Retail at Saks Fifth Avenue, Neiman Marcus and Victoria's Secrete.  She also had a stint as an apartment leasing agent.
KenC

[Admin]

SHHHHH Dan!  I'm a mean MF'er from Detroit and don't you ever forget it!!
KenC

Someday, I need to tell you a story about another "mean MF'er from Detroit." It'll be a while, but it is a REALLY funny story.

- Dan

[KenC]

Dan wrote:
What you are REALLY trying to say - without saying it is - you are a hopeless romantic quite unlike the gruff and crusty exterior you sometimes display.

Yeah Dan, that idea does ring true, ...and the exterior is quite thick at times.
And maybe he's not as 'hopeless' a romantic as the rest of us. <grin>

yeah, I resemble that remark, but then so do you!

Gabaub wrote:
I would argue that even the "successful" men will edit their personal histories to ensure a most favorable storyline. The women will always have had a great deal of choice, they did not want to leave but they happened to meet such a wonderful westerner who simply swept them off of their feet with their charm, good looks, charisma and etc.... It is the internet after all, we can all be tall, handsome, good looking, extremely rich and simply a fantastic catch desired by all women who happened to meet a wonderful woman in Russia  Wink


Right- I don't mean to disparage the members here, who are married, but I think there
is probably a wide range of degrees of 'success' represented. Okay, a guy may have
reached that goal of marriage, but we can't see if it's 'bliss' or hell. I apologize
for those times I've gone into my 1960's mode of 'question authority', but
it's a mode I'm comfortable with. It doesn't mean I won't digest the info
or gruff opinion.  A funny/interesting/horrible movie I saw recently,
was 'Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?'  In that story, you have two
psycho-monsters who are perfectly suited for each other. They thrive on
the tension, turmoil, and combat, that they provide for each other.

Well, Lena has posted here and if she indeed needed to put a cry out for help, I suppose she could have.  I disagree with this line of thinking and I will tell you why.  Most of the guys that brag up their marriage and wives share many stories about them.  You just would never have so many pleasant stories if there was "trouble in paradise."

Ken, I can relate to the 'bed' (flat) that you've described.<grin> The impossible bed
at my hotel in Kiev was designed for a short person, so I removed the mattress,
threw it on the small room's floor, and crashed.

Size was not the problem with mine.  It was lumpy and hard and the most miserable bed I have ever slept in.  It was pure torture.
KenC

[KenC]

Well, KenC, if you were not head over heals with Lena after like 3-4 calls then I would say that is strange. Maybe you were just cautious not to get too far and trying to conceal it, but admit, you probably flew on your wings to Tver, and you did have some agenda, desire and some plans, which is good.  I remember even in some other posts several months ago you were describing how on earth you would be 'dumb' NOT to like her and NOT to try this with her....I completely understand. It's just so funny how you say NO, no, no,  we didn't plan it, we didn't want to marry, we were not looking  hehehe....    

Lena is very busy, guys, she is gnawing a granite of a science, if you heard that Russian phrase. 

Anastassia,
I just read your post to Lena while she was sitting in my office.  She said, "Yeah, she's right.  I knew I loved you after 3 or 4 calls."  "Huh?"  I replied "But Sweetie, we didn't talk about love until much much later."  To which Lena replied, "Just because you don't say it doesn't mean you don't feel it!  Oh, and you loved me too, I could tell,  But I needed to let you figure that out yourself"  I give up! 
KenC