Big City Women!!!

[Jazzyclassy]

I am moscowite too and am proud of it

As many people told moscowite women can be this and that and scammers and women with golden hearts , like in any other places.

I want to underline that Moscow women do appreciate their place of birth and of living and they are not taking things for granted. And if they move to the other place let it be the village they try to suit its environment, unlike village girls, who come to Moscow thinking they are the best of all the rest and that Moscow is waiting for them and will offer the best job, the best flat and the best man and so on.

I came in touch with so many such attitudes among the girls from the little towns of Russia , the example is my University group mates, we have a lot of girls from Russia and who are constantly  complaining about life and cursing Moscow , even though they are living there, they have chosen to come to Moscow themselves.

When I got married , I never really made it public that much, only when I had to eventually change the surname and things in the University dean's office ,some village girls were so astonished and so negatively shocked and kept asking me, how did I manage that? - I think such type of questions are simply tasteless and impolite, of course they started gossiping and discussing my private life, behind my back , telling that my appearance is not that good and am such a person who is only studying and reading and learning English , that I could not be possibly having time to meet any guy and marry him. And they were so great beautiful with all the assets  and were suffering from lack of attention. I think such qualities sometimes can identify village girls, who are like a bunch of crows, not doing anything in order to achieve things and  are only getting envious about other's people events. Mostly moscow girls were not surprised and never actually tried to gossip about me, at least I never heard about it , they just congratulated me.

Though they say that village girls are more kinda striving and cos of some difficulties in their lives they are more survival , it is not always true, the same as that Moscow women take things for granted .Also  a lot of Moscow girls are also having difficulties in their lives, concerning job, finding a nice man, education, and so on.

There are a lot of nice village girls , but they seem to have that kinda lameness about the fact that they are coming from small towns and they always try to compete in this or that field and it is very important for them to be the best, they do not agree to take the last places, it seems that life itself for them it is a huge competition.

I also have another example of my cousin, who was living in Rostov on don, then she got an opportunity to go to Germany to be a babysitter, and then with the help of some old people whom she worked for she managed to enter the University there and stayed there for some time , met a German guy of course and got married, so now she is living in Germany. Since then she changed a lot she rarely calls us, thinks Moscow to be something as a black dark hole. Always sort of denies that Russian is her native language, by constantly telling -I do not know how you call it in Moscow, I call it this word , and she quotes in German. She is living there for about 3 or 4 years now.

It is a pity that she tries to show with all her actions, that look  I was from suburb of Rostov on Don and look now am in Germany , could you do like that too?

That is the most horrible quality I despise, I do not know ,of course people change, and maybe when I will be living in the UK, I will have some tone of an English woman , but I doubt I will be that haughty and in denial of my own heritage.

Yes there are a lot of arrogant women in Moscow, but it is normal as they are from a city , they can not help but being so as they were  sort of born with that feature in this or that way, But village girls they change from being naive and nice into arrogant,hunters!!!

Plus Moscow women are not really wanting to move somewhere, and village girls really do want to move to a better place, of course everybody understands this and I do , I just can blame only our government for that as they can not provide a great life in the village for our people, so  in some way  those village girls are not to blame of course, and actually nobody blames them, just sometimes they can not appreciate what they have  from the start......

[BillyB]

Uzbekistan population approximately 28 000 000 people. 100% - 13% = 87% who are inferred by this as inclind to stay married, 87% X 28 000 000 = 24 500 000 / 2 (male and female) = maybe 12 250 000 women who fit the desired category.

Russia population approximately 145 000 000. 100% - 69% = 31% who are inferred by this as inclind to say married, 31% X 145 000 000 = 45 000 000 / 2 (Male and female) = maybe 22 500 000 women who who fit the desired category.

If you want to play the odds game, I'll take Russia at 2-1 "On".

I/O

Unfortunately for most men in Russia, they have met the 69% women that fit in the undesired category while 87% of the men in Uzbekistan stay married. Don't take it from me, the 72 yo RM I spoke to said there is a big difference between authentic RW in the two countries with the RW in Uzbekistan valuing family and marriage more than their sisters in Russia and unlikely to leave their husband in times of hardship. Life in Uzbekistan is much harder than in Russia. The RM also had high praise for Muslim Uzbek women too.

[I/O]

Unfortunately for most men in Russia, they have met the 69% women that fit in the undesired category

Of course the MEN would not form any part of the not wanting to stay married group........

Billy some of the ideas you put forward are just too off the wall. You can call in all the Russian men in Uzbekistan to support this and it makes no difference. What you were trying to say was that on a PERCENTAGES BASIS the odds look better in Uzbekistan. So what? It still adds up to half the number of suitable women. 1/2. To say then, the chances are better there than Russia is just silly. 1/2, being 50%, that is if anyone wants to go there and most don't.

I/O

[Jazzyclassy]

    The RM also had high praise for Muslim Uzbek women too.        

It is rather strange statement and I let myself disagree with you, as I never met any russian guy who would praise muslim Uzbek women, I really never met such guy.

Many russian guys on the contrary want somebody from the fashion magazine cover or very rich girls with rich parents who could  help them with work

Some Russian guys began to think of moral and family values rather late in their lives unfortunately, so  it is unlikely that they appreciately family values of Uzbek women  in the first place!

[BC]

BC, I know you're anti-statistics but they are valuable. It was used effectively to show Eduard the true male/female population in Russia although he could tell his clients those statistics won't apply to them.

Governments, Universities, and businesses spend billions on finding out what the average person wants, how the average person behaves, and how the products and medicine will affect the average person. They will continue to spend money on studies because there is educational value to be had.

If everything is based on an individual level, then we don't need this thread or most other threads such as age differences. But it's important that people do understand with wider the age gaps, the more likely they are going to fail in their marriage. Without statistics or a decent collection of first hand knowledge, one can just assume he has as good a chance staying married to a woman 40 years younger and a woman 5 years younger. It isn't. Studies based on a group of people's actual experiences have proved it not to be true.

I talked to a 72 yo Russian man in Tashkent last week. He's been married 50 years. He's also lived in Russia for 25 years. He told me the RW and Uzbek women in Uzbekistan are better women and more marriage material than women in Russia. I told him I felt the same way. I've been to Moscow, St. Petersburg and Novosibirsk and I felt the women there are more into partying and materialistic things. My individual experience and his lifelong experience is one thing but Russia's 69% vs. Uzbekistan's 13% divorce rate speaks volumes to men who are looking for a partner that values marriage. You have more chance to find what you're looking for in Uzbekistan than Russia. Unfortunately we don't have statistics on whether or not the average big city girl is better than the average small town girl so we debate.

Billy,

I am not anti statistic.. I use them all the time in my business.  The low divorce rate is quite similar in Muslim countries.  Isn't Uzbekistan 88% Muslim (Sunni I think) ? Considering this statistic is based on a majority of Muslim/Muslim marriages there are two components Muslim/Muslim and Muslim/Non Muslim marriages..  This equals 13%.  What is the divorce rate between Muslim Women/Non Muslim Man/living in the USA?  Same question for Non Muslim Uzbek/Non Muslim Man?  Keep in mind that divorce rates in some other primarily Muslim countries is even lower.

Misusing statistical information in the manner many do here is at the most over rationalization and quite possibly delusional.

I will agree though that there are many good Uzbek women, just as I will agree that there are many good women in ANY country.  Just have to find one that will get along with you.

 

[BillyB]

Of course the MEN would not form any part of the not wanting to stay married group........

I/O,

You referred to married women as being in the desired category. For argument's sake, and the sake of not nitpicking, I didn't tell you every woman who is married may not be desirable. You lumped a group of women together and I lumped a group of men. In a nutshell, Uzbek men AND women stay married at a much higher ratio that Russian couples, PERIOD. If Uzbekistan's population was the same as Russia's, I'd doubt the statistics would change as long as the culture and values people hold towards marriage remain the same.

You can't meet every woman in Russia or Uzbekistan but you may pass on the street the same amount of women in the same amount of time in both countries. You may enter a disco in each country and find the same number of women there to meet. Your mouth can only speak to so many women at a time so a man does not have an edge in Russia over Uzbekistan when it comes to meeting a huge volume of women. You are limited by your own abilities to communicate. You're not limited by a lack of population of a nation. Using your logic, we should all search in China because there are more marriage material women there based on sheer numbers. Don't forget, there is also more competition too.

There's no question there are more desirable traits within people of one culture more than another. There are even different traits between city and small town women within the same culture. IMO and of the 72 yo RM, a RW, on average, is a better person living in Uzbekistan that if she lived in Russia. The culture teaches a different set of values that are better towards family life IMO.

It is rather strange statement and I let myself disagree with you, as I never met any Russian guy who would praise muslim Uzbek women, I really never met such guy.

Many russian guys on the contrary want somebody from the fashion magazine cover or very rich girls with rich parents who could  help them with work

Some Russian guys began to think of moral and family values rather late in their lives unfortunately, so  it is unlikely that they appreciately family values of Uzbek women   in the first place!

Jazzy, you're probably right that a RM doesn't praise or want an Muslim Uzbek woman IF he's from Russia. He wants someone of his own culture who he can relate too.

Within Uzbekistan, I've seen many incidences of interracial marriages/relationships from Russian, Uzbeks, Tatars, and Koreans. Maybe the culture is partially responsible for bringing down barriers of fear about other people of different skin color or the way they live. My fiancee's older brother is married to a woman is half Uzbek and half Tatar. Her younger brother is on his second Uzbek girlfriend that I know of and he's also had Russian girlfriends too. He's a good looking guy with a good job and he can catch most women but he chooses who he's attracted to and the women who treats him good. Currently it's an Uzbek woman. Keep in mind, religion is weak here so Muslims are not the die hard Muslims we come to know from the media. If a guy chose a Muslim Uzbek woman for his wife, I think she would change her faith to her husbands.

[Jazzyclassy]

Billy

of course there men who are in absolute delight of  muslim women and Uzbeck as well, I just do not agree that it is massive and very often you can meet such people

[I/O]

Billy, all that is waffle IMO, although I understand the point you are trying to make. I just think it is a wasted point because the bottom line is using your 69% 13% number (I am not doubting that number) it leaves 12 500 000 possibles in Uzbekistan and 22 500 000 in Russia. Then you say you have a better chance in Uzbekistan. It is a silly premise. The odds are stacked 2-1 on Russia.

As for China, I wouldn't touch it if I were searching, too many (Both quantum numbers and percentages) ugly ones there for my taste.

I am not the first to say this here, but I agree with it, if you want a Russian woman, go to the source.

I/O

[Fashionista]

I may be a little slow on this one, so could you elaborate please.

People move. Place doesn't make a person, family does. Sophistication is what your mother gave you, ambitions is what your father taught you, not standarts of the city where you pay your rent.

[mischief]

Since Gator makes more stress on Muscovites, I think it's necessary to state that there are only 5-10% Moscow born and bred in the city... since Moscow has always been an immigrant city and can fairly be compared with the US in this sense, you are real Muscovite if your parents and grandparents were born and lived in the city.  Most of "Moscow born and bred" moved to Europe, USA and Israel or to far north... here is some historic facts about Moscow, but it's in russian: http://www.kp.ru/daily/24043/99754/
Living in a big city gives you an advantage since you have an easy access to good education and cultural heritage... Because all theatres, museums, architecture, good schools and universities tend to be concentrated only in the big cities in FSU... constant exposure to a cultural heritage will make a person living in a city more sophisticated and with wide choice of schools being available you will more than likely turn out to be more educated... that does not mean that the city individuals are smarter, more talented or more hard working...
as I believe and Fashionista stated here it all depends on a family.  In Soviet Union specialists, scientists and all educated people were encouraged and sometimes forced to move out of the cities to make industrialisation possible throughout the country. With that said I think there is more chance to find a decent educated person in the north of Russia than in Moscow itself... at least in my experience the best human beings I ever met where from north of Russia...

In my family money were primarily spend on food, books and trips to historic places throughout FSU.  I have so bright memories of mom coming home happy simply because she was able to get another literature classic... we could not travel outside USSR but we sure could read about it.  I think I've read more American classics than any average american have... and in the evenings when we have nothing to do we would look through the art books and discuss the masterpieces...

[Simoni]

    ...no matter how successful she is professionally, how sophisticated she is personally, or how well regarded she is socially, there will always be Moscuvichkas that will look down their noses at her because she is not one of them, but rather, a village child born to "redneck" parents on the outskirts of the 3rd largest city of Russia. It won't matter to them that she has enchanted American aristocracy on Palm Beach and Long Island, or that she has better seats at the Miami Ballet. No, what's really important is that she's *NOT* from Moscow. 

...and that's the arrogance and insincerity I've personally observed.

Yes, I have noticed the same, time after time.  The truly great girl from Moscow is the one with the intelligence and charm that enables her NOT to look down on others and belittle them. True sophistication includes tact.

Funny, really.  When a Moscow girl starts spouting off how great and sophisticated she is, she becomes an oxymoron.

[Misha]

constant exposure to a cultural heritage will make a person living in a city more sophisticated and with wide choice of schools being available you will more than likely turn out to be more educated...

I can be exposed to a great many books on my book shelf, but unless I actually read them, I am neither going to be more sophisticated nor more educated. Likewise for the cultural heritage in a city: I can pass by the Bolshoi every day going to work, but unless I actually attend the opera or the ballet, the Bolshoi will add no more to my sophistication than a big pile of manure will add to someone living in a distant village. Someone from the distant Russian Far East who visits Moscow once a year to attend plays, go to the museums and participate in the cultural life of the city, will invariably be more educated and sophisticated than a Muscovite who simply walks by the buildings every day.

[mischief]

I can be exposed to a great many books on my book shelf, but unless I actually read them, I am neither going to be more sophisticated nor more educated. Likewise for the cultural heritage in a city: I can pass by the Bolshoi every day going to work, but unless I actually attend the opera or the ballet, the Bolshoi will add no more to my sophistication than a big pile of manure will add to someone living in a distant village. Someone from the distant Russian Far East who visits Moscow once a year to attend plays, go to the museums and participate in the cultural life of the city, will invariably be more educated and sophisticated than a Muscovite who simply walks by the buildings every day.

unless I don't understand the meaning of the word "exposure", my statement does not contradict with yours... to me being exposed to art means being influenced by it,  not walking by it ... Whenever I go to the theatre I feel different, more uplifted, more forgiving ... and back then it did not matter that I had to stand in bitter cold (the best shows are always in the winter) more than half an hour waiting for the bus and did not matter that there were too many people trying to get in the bus pushing you, cursing ... because everybody is trying to get home and it's freaking cold... but you feel good... really good... this is exposure to me...
what I was trying to say that the availability gives more chances to be exposed... get educated, sophisticated, etc. versus when you live in a small town and you have to make more effort...  if your parents teach you appreciate art, literature, paintings etc. it does not matter where you live you will always find the way to enjoy it and be influenced by it.  While living in the city, you can hang around Hermitage, look at the beautiful things and realize that they bring something good in you and you can learn to appreciate these things...

[Blues Fairy]

Actually most single girls you are likely to meet in Moscow will have relocated there from smaller towns, in search of better jobs and more exciting life.  Moscow concentrates 8% of Russia's total workforce, 67% of Russia's foreign direct investment, nearly 85% of all Russia's financial resources. Its higher education system includes 86 colleges, institutes, academies and universities enrolling over 500,000 students.  The odds of meeting a dynamic, educated, ambitious, well-travelled single professional woman proficient in languages is much higher in Moscow than in any other city.  Roughly 70% of my friends in Novosibirsk who had a higher professional ambition and/or have hit the ceiling in their N-sk jobs have ended up in Moscow, working for western companies or large businesses. 

True, working girls often have little life except their jobs and commuting, but their existence is nearly not as gloomy as gabaub has described.  Even if you're not going to theaters very often, you still have those 70% of your professional friends who have relocated to Moscow, plus your numerous new friends in various professional spheres. Keeping up those friendships is what sustains you and entertains you. 

As for the statistics on arrogance or sincerity in the cities and towns of Russia, I doubt you will find anything reliable enough to build your conclusions upon.   

[Misha]

It would be fascinating to see how many people living in St. Petersburg have actually been to the Hermitage (other than a school trip) and how many people in Moscow have actually been to the wonderful State Tretyakov Gallery in Moscow (again, other than a school trip)? Not many, I would guess. Yes, I agree that availability helps, but rarely do people take advantage of the opportunities that are available to them.

For those men (and women) visiting Moscow, I do recommend that you stop by the Tretyakov Gallery: http://www.tretyakov.ru/english/. It is well worth the visit and there are some wonderful works of art on display.

[Misha]

True, working girls often have little life except their jobs and commuting, but their existence is nearly not as gloomy as gabaub has described.  Even if you're not going to theaters very often, you still have those 70% of your professional friends who have relocated to Moscow, plus your numerous new friends in various professional spheres. Keeping up those friendships is what sustains you and entertains you. 

I will agree that Moscow attracts a lot of people: if you are fluent in foreign languages and want a job in a foreign company, then Moscow is the place to be. If you want a chance at a better job, Moscow is also the place to be. Finally, with the population decline, a lot of the best and brightest students from the regions are applying to Moscow universities and academic institutions as their chances of being accepted have increased dramatically with the declining number of young students.

The misconception that I was trying to address was the idea that somehow someone living in a large city would be more "sophisticated" and that someone who whose family had been living in Moscow for generations would by this fact be also more sophisticated. I don't see the proof of it. The time that the average Muscovite will spend working (often at more than one job) and commuting leaves little time and energy for taking part in the city's cultural life.

[Blues Fairy]

The misconception that I was trying to address was the idea that somehow someone living in a large city would be more "sophisticated" and that someone who whose family had been living in Moscow for generations would by this fact be also more sophisticated.

To paraphrase a saying, "A city does not make a woman, it's the woman who makes the city".  

[mischief]

To paraphrase a saying, "A city does not make a woman, it's the woman who makes the city".  

[ScottinCrimea]

I/O, It seems to me that your argument is a bit flawed.  It's like saying that the odds of finding a winning table in Las Vegas are 50% (I wish!) but the odds of finding one in one particular casino are 87%.  You're basically saying that you would rather try out all of the casinos because there is a larger number of tables to choose from rather than going to the casino with the greater odds.

[Gator]

Gaubaub,
I asked you to leave the issue of ancestry in the other thread.  You can not. 

It seems that you are still implying, however vaguely, that I said ancestry automatically determines sophistication.  Please give it up or show me where I said or implied such. 

IMO the problem is that you are using an incorrect definition of sophistication and may be interchanging it with art connoisseurship.  Try this one from Encarta:

a combination of worldly wisdom, self-confidence, and refinement in a person.

   

One could substitute “enlightened.”   Thus, a person can be sophisticated and not give a rat’s ass about art.  He may not even be a highbrow.   For sure his ancestry has no bearing other than what was inculcated from their parenting.  In America, a DAR could be anything, but more likely a crotchety old hen rather than a sophisticate.

[Gator]

This thread has had the usual spirited discourse and divergence, and it is growing tedious to me.  Maybe I have seen too much of the same before - this very subject was discussed at length more than one year ago.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3456.0

Please read what JB had to say in his several posts starting on the first page (I miss JB).  KenC added some good guidance, and Turbo discussed the attraction of the smaller city women.

Before exiting this thread, my summary:

The term “Moscow Woman” or “Big City Woman” is a synonym for educated woman with high goals, the talent for achieving them, and experience with worldly ways.  Such women can be found anywhere in the FSU, yet I feel they are more abundant in the big cities, whether born there or gravitated there.  Among these women, an unknown number also manifest the set of qualities touted about RW – family values, feminine, sexy, etc.   Such duality is perfect for me.  Add to that the fact that many are gorgeous…. it is like a dream. 

To avoid Big City Women because they have many options is a decision each man must make based on his own merits.   To avoid them because of claims such as insincerity and expensive is invalid.

Nevertheless, there are fine women everywhere; it is your job to find them and woo them.  Good luck gentlemen wherever your journey takes you.

[goforit]

I don't know what the odds of divorce is when having a marriage with Russia's big city women or small town women but Russia's overall divorce rate is a piss poor 69%. That has got to say something about people's sincerity towards commitment to staying in and nurturing their marriage through tough times.

Other FSU nations such as Uzbekistan on the other hand have only a 13% divorce rate and the RW are clearly different in Tashkent, FSU's 4th largest city compared to the RW in St. Petersburg and Moscow.

Fascinating.

I wonder how those Moscow numbers really fall out.

What I mean is that in America we have a fairly high divorce rate, and yet (and these numbers may be a little dated), 80% of all Americans living today who are married are married to the same person. Whoa! How do you get that?

Well there appears to be a large subculture of second and beyond divorces. A person divorced once has a 75% chance of divorcing again. So you have a room with four couples. 3 of them are married to the same person and one has taken marriage lessons from Elizabeth Taylor which skews the numbers higher than they would be otherwise.

I don't know what is going on in Moscow but I wonder if the ease of divorce has created its own subculture of marriage/divorce which is distinct from other parts of the FSU. Maybe for most Muscovites its not that bad but watch out if you meet the few who are watching Russian dubbed versions of E! Biographies of Elizabeth Taylor.

I don't know. I'm just throwing this out for discussion.

[goforit]

If you have a shopping mall, farmers market and large grocer next to your house she will probably be happy.

She will love Seattle. The world's first indoor mall, a few farmers markets, and a large grocer all within a few minutes of each other.

[goforit]

Upon reflection and thinking about population trends in RU and a comment from jb along these lines in another thread, selling now high might well be the best thing to do.  Maybe in 10 or 15 years buy a city block with the proceeds.  Might want to keep the funds in rubles.. who knows what the new all time low for the dollar will be..

Swiss Francs would be even better.

[AnastassiaAsh]

She will love Seattle. The world's first indoor mall, a few farmers markets, and a large grocer all within a few minutes of each other.

Yes, Seattle and its suburbs, is the best and most beautiful place I have ever been too, except Vancouver, BC of course.