Russia is at it again!

[Ranetka]

You're right.  The conflict in Georgia have nothing to do with religion.  You mentioned Chechen terrorism and why is there no terrorism associated with the Ossetians.  I answered that they are not Muslim.  While being Muslim doesn't make one a terrorist, there are very few terrorists these days who do not claim to be Muslim.  How did we stray so far off point?

What I was trying to say is that Russia could not afford independance of Chechnya. We would have had a terrorist state at our border if Russia allowed it. Southern Ossetia as far as I know did not engage in terrorist activities, no justification for keeping it whithin Georgia.

I see it as politics has nothing to do with morals and that is why I disagree when you picture Russia to be horrible. It is the same as any other country including yours. Especially yours. US egages in wars a lot lately.

[Ronnie]

Ranetka, you tore down the statue of Dzherzhinsky only to later consent to be ruled by his progeny?  It makes no sense to me.

[Shadow]

Ronnie I hope that like wxman you measure all the same.
You seem to have a strong feeling about the Kremlin and KGB, although the only place where KGB exists these days is in the Russian flag.
However when the Taliban place a bomb that kills US military peace troops in Afghanistan, do you cry out when the US bombs a couple of Taliban camps, killing a number of civilians 'held hostage' in the process ?
If you do, then I understand your views. However if you feel that the US is right in such retaliation but that Russia is doing out of imperialism and KGB mentality, then you should seriously question yourself if there is not some influence of long time cold War propaganda speaking.

Lets review the start of situation.
August 7, Georgia declares that they agree about negotiations with South Ossetia in the presence of Russia, and that the negotioations will begin the next day.
August 8, at night Georgia launches a rocket attack on South Ossetia, 1600 die in the capital of Tchinvali and 10 peace keepers are killed.
August 8, Russia call the UN to condemn the Georgian actions and call immediate cease fire. The UN is watching Olympics.
August 8, Russia decides that the only way to stop Georgian troops attacking is by retaliating and launch an attack.

In spite of all the wild accusations, Russian troops have not gone to Tbilisi, they have conquered South Ossetia, Abkhazia and laid a buffer zone around it. 

Perhaps its me, but it seems like Russia has stopped attacks on a region they have promised to protect. Remember that the area is inhabited by only 70.000 people. Killing off anyone that resisted attack would not have taken a lot of time, and certainly could have been done before the UN woke up.

If you are willing to drag the history of Georgia in it, also drag in the history of Ossetia, and you will see that they are autonomous for a very long time. Ask yourself why Georgia, if they are such a peaceful and law-abiding nation, wants to suddenly end that situation.
Without the Russian reaction, the Georgian attack would have put their membership of NATO further away, as the world would have frowned upon Georgia using force to conquer a previously autonomous region, and the Ossetian might have resorted to terrorist attacks after losing their autonomy. However Russia chose not to let people suffer and die while the world was debating over how to react.

When the Dutch troops were in Srebrenica they got a lot of critic over them allowing the Serbs to take over and committing genocide.
They had only light arms and did not get air support agains heavily armed Serbian troops.
Perhaps that is why I can understand the Russian reaction. Not because it is Russia or my wife is Russian, but because I have a good recollection on the shame the Dutch peace troops felt that they could do nothing while people were being killed, and the only thing they got was a load of criticism afterwards. Many would rather have fought to death than standing at gunpoint watching things unfold.

Should the Russian peace keepers have done the same and watched the attacks happen ? I think they were right to call in support, and whoever feels to point at Russia has too short a memory of what happens if you take away the rights of peace troops to call in reinforcement when their mission is in danger.

[I/O]

Write the Amerkanski off at your peril.

It has been interesting to read this and other blogs regarding the supposed economic retreat of the USA. It has also been interesting to note the almost delight from some critics of America at the perceived flexing of military muscle by Russia. Some have gone as far as saying “Checkmate” to Russia, they have been patient and have gotten what they wanted. Russia is in the driver’s seat. Perhaps this could be true and time will be the ultimate judge, but there is another (Among many) perspective.

The view held by some is Bush is a bumbling fool and Rice, who is supposed to be a Russian expert has marked herself by rushin’ about making an idiot of herself.  Partly if not very true, but I suggest there is another side which in the latest round of debates is largely unexplored.

What has Russia gotten from this? The basket cases of two provinces which it has now committed to prop up for who knows how long. Neither of these places are exactly serious potential economic contributors to the Russian economy and will certainly be a drag for some time, if not permanently. As yet, Russia does not have total control of Georgia and without upping the stakes considerably, is unlikely to take total control on a permanent basis in the near term. A call, whether real or not, of halt to military proceedings, suggests Russia has either blinked in the eye of confrontation or is not positioned to assert absolute control at this time. I suspect a little of both.

Europe is no worse off than it was. Nothing has actually changed at this point other than the talk fest subject. On the contrary, USA has gotten exactly what it wants thus far. Poland has agreed to the missile defense shield thingy and America has coughed up a few more candies in the process. So what? It was always going to cost. If Ukraine made good on the threat to terminate the lease of the black sea port space, it would cost what? Umpteen million per year? Anyone like to bet the Amerikanski wouldn’t be offering Trumpteen million a year for the same port space within 5 minutes?

Ask yourself the question, why did USA want Ukraine et al in NATO? So, USA didn’t get that up in the last round. USA and in particular the present administration, hasn’t been famous for patience. Russia out of the black sea ports and USA in. Is there a difference between that and having Ukraine in NATO? Yes, perhaps there is, USA achieves one possible objective more quickly.

The Putin, Jack Boot style has all but consigned Medvedev to the realms of irrelevance for much, if not all of his presidency. Perhaps we always knew that would be the case but hoped for something better. Russian people on the whole have been sold the line very well for a long time that the rest of the world wishes Russia ill and this generates many critics. Little could be further from the truth and on this board in particular, there is many with a very great affinity for the Russia people, not least of all me and I think it is fair to say we have delighted in an almost “Coming Out” of Russia in recent years.  The bear pushed it’s claw out but in many ways retreated into the cave in the process. Russia has shown her hand, something fatal in the national game of chess. The press berates America and the west for lack of action, but the flip side of that is America and the west still has the cards firmly inside the sleeve.

Those who hopefully suggest America and the west has no cards to play, may yet be surprised. America has a fraction of it’s forces deployed in the Mid East on active duty. The UK has almost none. ………….did anyone mention the Israel factor? Food for thought.

Those who speak of the coming again of the cold war fool themselves. It is here now and it is here for a goodly time to come, maybe longer than the previous cold war. Regardless of who shot first in the current conflict, Russia’s trustworthiness and image in the world has been re dated by 20 years at best and that isn’t 20 years advanced.

America may or may not play her cards well from here on in. I have never placed blind faith in America’s ability to be all conquering, however I think it unwise to write her off as having lost out in this one just yet. Maybe there is much more to unravel as this plays out on what may amount to little more than a tiny chess board for the boys……………………. 

I/O

[Shadow]

I/O I do not berate the West or the US for lack of action. As said above, the main issue I have is with the criticism on Russia for taking action.

[BC]

Ask yourself the question, why did USA want Ukraine et al in NATO? So, USA didn’t get that up in the last round. USA and in particular the present administration, hasn’t been famous for patience. Russia out of the black sea ports and USA in. Is there a difference between that and having Ukraine in NATO? Yes, perhaps there is, USA achieves one possible objective more quickly.

Is a very good question I/O and also a good question as to why they are not yet accepted.  I believe thoughts of many NATO members is that as an organization it has been a quite stable force, providing some common grounds for the members to stand on.  Accepting new unstable relationships creates a weaker organization that can be more easily destabilized, and does promote questions as to exactly why NATO feels the need to expand.

Is RU an 'enemy' that requires such expansion?

[Ronnie]

Geez Mat, (i/O) what an interesting post.  It really made me think.

You mentioned that America has her troops engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan.  You also mentioned the currently empty dance card of the Brits.  What you didn't mention were the French, Germans, Italians, Greeks, Turks and Spanish.  Not so sure about them?  I'm thinking Western Europe is craving an opportunity to get involved somewhere militarily if they can have their population's support.  They feel a need, I think, to show Brits and the Danes that they are not the only ones with balls.

You forget too, Mat, that the US has four armed services, two of them, the Navy and Air Force haven't had much excitement in quite a while.  Fighter pilots love to fly and they do it better than anyone.  The A10 warthog pilots haven't had a good tank shoot since the early days of the Iraq invasion.

The other aces up the sleeve of the west are the former satellites so brutally dominated by the Kremlin for decades.  Their hatred for Russia has got to be immeasurable.  (I was almost tossed out of my taxi in Warsaw because I thought the driver might understand Russian better than English - He proceeded to give me a lesson in Polish antipathy toward the Kremlin).

Could it be that Putin's plan for regime change came straight out of the box marked "Acme Co.?"  If he had watched American cartoons, he'd know that those Acme products are guaranteed to backfire in your face.  Just ask Wile E. Coyote.

[BC]

Geez Mat, (i/O) what an interesting post.  It really made me think.

You mentioned that America has her troops engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan.  You also mentioned the currently empty dance card of the Brits.  What you didn't mention were the French, Germans, Italians, Greeks, Turks and Spanish.  Not so sure about them?  I'm thinking Western Europe is craving an opportunity to get involved somewhere militarily if they can have their population's support.  They feel a need, I think, to show Brits and the Danes that they are not the only ones with balls.

Certainly can't confirm this with my ear to the ground.  No one here I speak or correspond with even consider RU a threat.  You have witnessed this in support for Iraq where ex SU nations tend to want to support the US more, and in active roles.  Georgia is an excellent example.  2000 Georgian troops in Iraq are back home, and will likely never return.  I wonder who will replace them or if even they will be replaced.

Europe as a whole are quite reserved when possibly embroiling themselves into another country's agenda.  European citizens have no need to fear RU.

[I/O]

You mentioned that America has her troops engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan.  You also mentioned the currently empty dance card of the Brits.  What you didn't mention were the French, Germans, Italians, Greeks, Turks and Spanish.  Not so sure about them?  I'm thinking Western Europe is craving an opportunity to get involved somewhere militarily if they can have their population's support.  They feel a need, I think, to show Brits and the Danes that they are not the only ones with balls.

You forget too, Mat, that the US has four armed services, two of them, the Navy and Air Force haven't had much excitement in quite a while.  Fighter pilots love to fly and they do it better than anyone.  The A10 warthog pilots haven't had a good tank shoot since the early days of the Iraq invasion.

Ronnie: I mentioned America has a Fraction of her forces in the Mid East. My point being, there is a lot more grunt left in the sump if needed.

The British are always a dark horse as they deal with military issues in a rather "British" style. Rather understated if you will ol' chap. Nevertheless, a highly effective military, well equipped and very well schooled. I'll not easily forget their quiet stylish way of dealing with southern Iraq. They had a horrible hot bed to deal with and did it very effectively without much fanfare. I have never been a lover of the Brits but it doesn't stop me respecting them. I don't think the British military holds much fear of anyone. During the '91 gulf war the French and USA airforce rated their pilots as far and away the best for the tough low level jobs.

I do not forget the various sectors of the military. I profess to know nothing of the inner workings however, but I can read and I would reccomend to anyone "It Doesn't Take a Hero" which is General H Norman's auto biography. An honest self appraisal warts and all. I have also noticed some comments in this thread eluding to why he didn't "Finish the job" back then. He answers that very clearly in his book. His words to this effect IIRC, "We had belted them far back across the border, we had no mandate to pursue them further and it was simply becoming wantan killing so I called a halt to the butchery".

Shadow: I said the press barates America and the west for lack of action. Practically every report on line is suggesting Russia is in total control of everything from this side of Mars to southern Chili. I contest Russia is in control of nothing other than a couple of economic and ethnic backwaters that much of the world has never heard of and if she uses some good sense, her own destiny.

BTW, I note USA pumping so called humanitarian assistance and people into Georgia. I imagine the Russians are livid with this, not because of the aid, but because it has almost taken one option away from them. If Russia can move to protect it citizens, surely USA has the same option if it became necessary. Call it a human shield, call it whatever, Russia lost a pawn from the chess board the moment US citizens in number started landing in Tbilisi. I still tend to think Russia is holding the aces in this one, but I also think she has no table on which to lay them down.

I/O

[Diplomacy]

Well President Bush just made a public speech.  The tone is not good and is now to the point anything can and will probably happen.  We knew as a government that this initial crisis was coming.  All evidence points to that.

I wish that we could all learn what I did from my grandfather, and that is to separate the people from the government.  Many of you that are married and committed to FSU woman, know that there are the public and private side to this culture.

You have been able with success, to take the person and the family values into a union of cultures.  There is many sides to tough love, and I would love to gain some prospective on their views of America, and if they still garner such biased views?

How many times do we need to watch the same story with different players?  There is too many facts, even now with the haze of War.  The Russian's have said one thing and done another on numerous occasions during this conflict.

They are committing acts of War.  Should we sit there and watch, then everyone would scream at us for allowing that.  Would you trust that your country is not next? 

Should my children watch me wake up in a cold sweat like my grandfather did?  The look still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end.  He was an officer for Patton BTW.

Now an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of Cure.  Deal with this before there is a lot more to deal with.  Russia is not learning from prior mistakes, and do not view their tactics as immoral.  They feel they are and always will use their citizens as a resource, that they will do what they please to.  Unless they have serious social reform, and IMO they are very much victims of a Glory Day syndrome.

They have the resources and ability to empower their their country and citizens.  Instead they use the revenue for a show of force and shadow of fear.  I do not understand the mentality of trying to justify it.

You can not rationalize when people care to act irrational.     

[Shadow]

Diplomacy can you specify when the Russians have said one thing and done another ?
Please carefully check the statements and the facts, not allegations.

I have read a number of accusations, and usually the headlines were built on those. When reading the article, it often showed that the headline was not correct. Based on the headlines, one could get the impression that since the ceasefire a large number of territories were taken, Russian tanks are on the edge of Tbilisi and there still is fighting on a large scale.
Reading the reports, Russians were patrolling areas without shooting or resistance, never came closer than 10 miles outside Gori and hostilities have ceased.

[Diplomacy]

With Pleasure!

First the tanks used in the conflict were staged, to cross into the region.  Russia Clearly stated they were preparing for training in the Northern Region.

They said that they were not preparing for this conflict, but some magic force mobilized a  show of force in a manner and time frame that needed prior planning.

The general was on record that they were not going deeper into the region and then the next day did just that

That they were there to support peace keepers, and then committed aggresive acts of war.

Have targeted oil, manufacturing, civilian population, and pipelines. 

I am not stating media sources, I am speaking from a military prospective.  Not jumping to a quick conclusion IMO.

I do not want to see anymore forced famine, no heat available, senseless killing, and such a low quality of life anymore.  I am not just talking about it, we are doing what we can with those that care. 

I have been involved with mostly Ukrainian policy for 3 years now.  It is a mess, and it is tough to go over there now for me.  What is the thanks for all this time and money I have spent.  To be charged more than their own people on a grand scale. To be viewed us stupid and wrong.

I am being a man, doing the right thing is not easy.  It has to start somewhere, and the reality that there may be no results.  Whether I adopt or marry a girl from the FSU, IMO you take the whole package.

You do not get to pick and choose what parts you want to leave there.  It is a labor of love what I do, and it would continue forever.

I know I came here shortly, and I wish I knew of the site earlier.  This is one of the few places, that people understand what I am going through.  It is a weight off my shoulders and valuable insight. 

I do not impose my will on others, now teaching people how to love and be loved.  That is one war I am in the middle of.

If there is an error in my judgment, or anything I have stated is wrong.  Please tell me why you believe it is so.  I try my best not to have an ego, but results vary lol

[BC]

There are precedents that were tolerated without all the fanfare..

Turkish troops enter north Iraq

Washington said it had been informed of the incursion in advance and said it had urged the Turks to limit their action to precise targeting of rebel Kurdish targets.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7258323.stm

Obviously US views were more tolerant.

albeit different place, different time, from a US ally and member of NATO no less..

[Blues Fairy]

Is a very good question I/O and also a good question as to why they are not yet accepted.  Accepting new unstable relationships creates a weaker organization that can be more easily destabilized, and does promote questions as to exactly why NATO feels the need to expand.

Is RU an 'enemy' that requires such expansion?

I used to think expansion of NATO to the east has more to do with creating a shield against the Middle East than with the Russian threat.  On the other hand, Russia has always reacted to this defensively and at the same time sided with Iran, for its own obscure reasons.  
Sadly Russia seems to preemptively put itself in the place of "global threat" where few have seen her as such, until recently.

[Misha]

Southern Ossetia as far as I know did not engage in terrorist activities, no justification for keeping it whithin Georgia.

Here is an piece from last year whereby Georgia claims that it was being shelled by forces in South Ossetia:

GEORGIA SAYS GEORGIAN VILLAGE SHELLED BY BREAKAWAY SOUTH OSSETIA
By (02/04/2007 issue of the CACI Analyst)

Georgia said Sunday a Georgian village was shelled by its breakaway province of South Ossetia. Fire at the Georgian village of Nikozi was opened Saturday evening from Tskhinvali, the capital of the separatist region, Georgia said. South Ossetia declared independence from Georgia following a bloody conflict in 1991-1992 that killed hundreds of people. The pro-Western Georgian government of Mikheil Saakashvili has said it is determined to bring the breakaway region back under its control. Mamuka Kurashvili, the commander of the Georgian peacekeeping battalion in the Georgia-South Ossetia conflict area, said that large-caliber weapons, mortars and automatic rifles were used to shell the village and that the shelling lasted 45 minutes. He said a monitoring group consisting of peacekeepers and OSCE representatives in the conflict area is investigating the situation. The Georgian side also said a resident of the village of Nikozi was wounded during the shelling and was taken in a grave condition to a hospital in Tbilisi for treatment. At the same time, South Ossetian authorities said the breakaway republic\'s capital of Tskhinvali was subjected to fire yesterday evening from three Georgian villages located in the conflict area. As a result of the shelling, which began at 09:30 p.m. Moscow time (06:30 p.m. GMT), a local resident was injured, the republican information and press department said. (RIA Novosti)

Though I do think Georgia made a strategic error, I do not think that the South Ossetian leadership were the blameless victims. They had an interest in keeping the conflict going as it brought money to the region, money they could certainly siphon off to their personal benefit. As such they were active partners in keeping the conflict active in a game of tit-for-tat brinkmanship whereby they would shell the Georgian forces/villages and in return they would be attacked by the Georgians, which would serve as justification for more shelling....

[BC]

I used to think expansion of NATO to the east has more to do with creating a shield against the Middle East than with the Russian threat.  On the other hand, Russia has always reacted to this defensively and at the same time sided with Iran, for its own obscure reasons.  
Sadly Russia seems to preemptively put itself in the place of "global threat" where few have seen her as such, until recently.

Blues,

As with many things in life, a balance is involved.  RU does have a place in this balance of powers.  Even the US government has a form of checks and balances between the different branches of government that still seems to be fairly effective. As business needs competition so does the world.

Each nation will continue to assert itself in one way or the other, and it is good for the long term that more than 'one' power exists to maintain balance.


 

[Blues Fairy]

As with many things in life, a balance is involved.  RU does have a place in this balance of powers.  Each nation will continue to assert itself in one way or the other, and it is good for the long term that more than 'one' power exists to maintain balance

I don't mind if the Middle East loses its side of the "balance", indeed the world would be a safer place if Islamic nations had a little less military power.  But why Russia chooses to side with THAT side of the "balance" is a mystery to me.  Profits from sales of arms seem like a rather a clumsy and short-sighted justification. 

From the Georgian situation, Russia could have emerged in the pink if they stopped after 5 days, right after kicking the Georgians out of S.Ossettia.  Such a fantastic chance to have behaved as a civilized country - and so stupidly botched. 

[Shadow]

With Pleasure!

First the tanks used in the conflict were staged, to cross into the region.  Russia Clearly stated they were preparing for training in the Northern Region.

They said that they were not preparing for this conflict, but some magic force mobilized a  show of force in a manner and time frame that needed prior planning.

The general was on record that they were not going deeper into the region and then the next day did just that

That they were there to support peace keepers, and then committed aggresive acts of war.

Have targeted oil, manufacturing, civilian population, and pipelines. 

I am not stating media sources, I am speaking from a military prospective.  Not jumping to a quick conclusion IMO.

First there were NATO troops on practice in Georgia, that were training with Georgian troops.
Could that be the trigger to place Russian troops ready near the border ? The presence of Russian troops near the border did not stop Georgia from attacking.

"The general": please state the name of the general, at which point he said this, what were the exact positions of the Russian troops at that time and to which positions they advanced the next day.

Russians made clear they would ensure Georgia would not be able to repeat actions. That is supporting peace keepers.
Acts of war, if any, came after Georgia declared their country in state of war.

I do not know which military sources you have. I base my opinions on the time line of the conflict as I have been able to establish it.

[Ronnie]

 

I want to commend Blues Fairy's honesty and open-mindedness.  She's has been and continues to be a breath of fresh air among so many of us intractable blowhards.

[Ronnie]

Blues,

As with many things in life, a balance is involved.  RU does have a place in this balance of powers.  Even the US government has a form of checks and balances between the different branches of government that still seems to be fairly effective. As business needs competition so does the world.

Each nation will continue to assert itself in one way or the other, and it is good for the long term that more than 'one' power exists to maintain balance.

BC.  Tell me about the checks and balances within the KGB Kingdom.

[steviej]

Want to avoid an escalation in hostilities? It's easy. Stay out of it. US, NATO, and everyone else should stay out of it. Russia and Georgia can solve their own problems.

I think Bush/Cheney and the backers of their administration are scrambling to do anything they can to create a sense of world security crises, war or impending war, etc. to try to derail the election of the Democrats and Obama this coming November. It is that cynical, believe me. After all,  you don't change Commanders and Chiefs in a war or tense security situation. Imagine the American voters if its perceived there is a very tense security situation with Russia at the time of the election. Good thing for the Republicans.

And I guarantee you, Russia will not take the deployment of missile systems in Poland lieing down. I cannot think of a more pointless and hostile provocation toward Russia than that.

The US is certifiably insane. And by the way, we're broke. We're borrowing money for all this nonsense from Saudi Arabia, China, et al that my sons have to sweat for decades trying to repay instead of being able to invest in things in their own country they will need .. hmm . basics such as highways, schools, medical care, social security, and the entire US infrastructure. We are just insane and drunk with "moralistic interventionism" on a scale that leaves me staggering around.

President Eisenhower's parting words were that American citizens need to be aware of the "military industrial complex" that had grown up in US post WWII. He meant there were significant business and military interests who benefitted from a constant state of war, or threat of war. He was very prescient indeed.

Our government is supposed to be "of the people, by the people and for the people." How, pray tell, is any of this international war mongering "for the people", that is, the direct benefit of hard working US citizens, who are now the hardest working people in the world, woriking the most hours per week, suffering the most stress and depression disorders from too much work and too much work stresl. This nonsense is all "for the people". I contend it is not.

[Ronnie]

First there were NATO troops on practice in Georgia, that were training with Georgian troops.
Could that be the trigger to place Russian troops ready near the border ? The presence of Russian troops near the border did not stop Georgia from attacking.

"The general": please state the name of the general, at which point he said this, what were the exact positions of the Russian troops at that time and to which positions they advanced the next day.

Russians made clear they would ensure Georgia would not be able to repeat actions. That is supporting peace keepers.
Acts of war, if any, came after Georgia declared their country in state of war.

I do not know which military sources you have. I base my opinions on the time line of the conflict as I have been able to establish it.

Shadow.. I know this is a longshot, but you wouldn't happen to be related to that Baghdad Bob fellow would you?

[Shadow]

Shadow.. I know this is a longshot, but you wouldn't happen to be related to that Baghdad Bob fellow would you?

Ronnie, I see a lot of misinformation in many places. And not only in the Western oriented sites, there is just as much *snip* in the Russian oriented press. Many people seem to base their pieces or commentary on the headlines and first three lines of text.
This is why I am becoming tired of any broad statements without specifics.

If you want to have an example of Russian misinformation, I can dig up a link to a site where the killing of the Dutch cameraman by a grenade is said to be a fake and that it was a car accident instead.

Sorry but I look at what I can establish as factual information and then make up my own mind. The surrounding exclamations I take as they are, made in order to confuse and influence opinions.

[Ronnie]

Want to avoid an escalation in hostilities? It's easy. Stay out of it. US, NATO, and everyone else should stay out of it. Russia and Georgia can solve their own problems.

I think Bush/Cheney and the backers of their administration are scrambling to do anything they can to create a sense of world security crises, war or impending war, etc. to try to derail the election of the Democrats and Obama this coming November. It is that cynical, believe me. After all,  you don't change Commanders and Chiefs in a war or tense security situation. Imagine the American voters if its perceived there is a very tense security situation with Russia at the time of the election. Good thing for the Republicans.

And I guarantee you, Russia will not take the deployment of missile systems in Poland lieing down. I cannot think of a more pointless and hostile provocation toward Russia than that.

The US is certifiably insane. And by the way, we're broke. We're borrowing money for all this nonsense from Saudi Arabia, China, et al that my sons have to sweat for decades trying to repay instead of being able to invest in things in their own country they will need .. hmm . basics such as highways, schools, medical care, social security, and the entire US infrastructure. We are just insane and drunk with "moralistic interventionism" on a scale that leaves me staggering around.

President Eisenhower's parting words were that American citizens need to be aware of the "military industrial complex" that had grown up in US post WWII. He meant there were significant business and military interests who benefitted from a constant state of war, or threat of war. He was very prescient indeed.

Our government is supposed to be "of the people, by the people and for the people." How, pray tell, is any of this international war mongering "for the people", that is, the direct benefit of hard working US citizens, who are now the hardest working people in the world, woriking the most hours per week, suffering the most stress and depression disorders from too much work and too much work stresl. This nonsense is all "for the people". I contend it is not.

StevieJ..  Your comments are quickly moving from merely absurd to the edge of insane.  What would be your view if you happened to be born Georgian? 
But fortunately for you, you were not born there.  You're an American sitting safely a hemiphere away from most of the world's problems.

You decry America's habit of putting out fires while they're small.  "let them burn themselves out" is your attitude.  The flames can't jump across such a large ocean.  The real shame is you can't see the clear folly of your statements.  You have as twisted a view of history as it is possible for one person to have.  Maybe, (and I'm stretching on your behalf) you are such a good person that you naturally assume there is no evil in the world, that there is really no such thing as a bad person and tryants are just misunderstood.

 

[steviej]

One of the finer pieces of gibberish to come from your pen to date, Ronnie. You subscribe to the view that the US should be the Policemen of the World. I do not. Show me in the constitution or in any of the writings of the founding fathers where the charter of the new republic of democratic states is to be the policemen of the world? It certainly has nothing to do with whether one belivees in the existence of evil or not. You want the US to be the world's policemen, I do not. That is the disagreement.