Russia is at it again!

[I/O]

B/F: Your comments, whilst admirably patriotic in essence are entirely indicative of why Russia ultimately fell into the hole it did. Russia's style has long been to try to control things from the top down rather than to gain the absolute support of the grass roots. One of the disappointing aspects of this situation is that it ultimately has the potential to undo much of the gain Russia has made in the last decade. Time will show and I hope for the best but realism compells me to expect the worst.

Your comparison doesn't make sense because SO and other regions were NOT annexed by Georgia. The opposite is actually the case, they broke away. Isn't that what Russia fought so hard to reverse in Chechnya? So called rebels who wanted to break away? Me thinks Auntie Rus is cherry picking a little.

Oh well, it makes for some interesting reading in the background here and there in the face of probably the most boringly telecast olympics in living memory. One bright spot is Michael Phelps....................He is one I WOULD pay money again to watch. Two down, two in the pocket and six to go. Who wants a 50 on him getting his 8?

I/O

[Shadow]

I/O I am sorry to say that you are the misinformed one here.

SO has been autonomous for over 80 years, and has been requesting independence for almost 20.
Georgia is also a breakaway nation from Russia, but they are unwilling to give up territory.
As for the 'giving away' of Russian passports, did it ever occur to you that all citizens who are born in the Soviet Union, and those whose parents were born in the Soviet Union have the right to get a Russian passport ? Russia could not refuse, even if they wanted.

And for those who are still looking at Putin, the current president Medvedev was the leader of GAZPROM in the past.

By the way, what is the purpose of NATO other than let some countries be a shield for any attack on America ?

[BC]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7553390.stm

A  quite good overview.

4. Georgia is unlikely to join Nato anytime soon.

Georgia and Ukraine were denied membership of Nato in April, although they were allowed to develop an action plan that could lead to membership one day.

The Americans argued for both countries to be accepted, but the Germans and others countered that the region was too unstable for these countries to join at the moment and that in particular Georgia, a state with a border dispute, should not be given formal Nato support.

.....

9. August is good month in which to reflect on alliances.

In August 1914, the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo led to the First World War. It did so because alliances had been formed in Europe which came into play inexorably. Russia supported Serbia, Germany supported Austria, France supported Russia and Britain came in when Belgium was invaded.

Alliances must not be entered into lightly or unadvisedly. If Georgia had been in Nato, what would have happened?

Nato has served it's purpose but it's probably time to shut it down and let the Europeans take care of their own matters.  Isn't the US in effect attempting to push Nato into supporting their own agenda?  .. sure seems that way...

 

[Lit_1nce]

By the way, what is the purpose of NATO other than let some countries be a shield for any attack on America ?

The purpose of NATO isn't to defend against attack on America.. and if you look at Iraq, you can see that it isn't even to necessarily promote American interests.. if so, then all NATO countries would be in Iraq. It's purpose is to discourage things like one country invading another.. It's purpose is to protect Europe, and I think it's done a pretty good job for the most part.

[BC]

The first US military 'assistance' to Georgia in the form of transportation of 2000 Georgian troops from Iraq.  Paid for by the US taxpayer, on US planes (I assume).  If that is not throwing fuel in the fire...

The first of the Georgian forces withdrawn from Iraq over the weekend have already arrived in Gori, 15 miles from the South Ossetian border, The Times can confirm, and appear to be in no mood for peace.

"We will drink Russian blood," said Badri, one of the contingent newly arrived from Iraq.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4503176.ece

[kievstar]

Regarding Western Europe taking care of things not a good idea.  No offense to people on this board but Western Europe is a joke when it comes to protecting itself.  Most of western Europe hates each other as well - i.e. French vs Dutch / Flemish.  England vs French. German vs French.  Maybe more of the problem is the French - does any country like them.  I live and work in Brussels and Zurich right now and it amazes me how much within Western Europe countries do not like each other.

Russia and USA will always quarrel but their more like brothers than they realize.  When has the last time USA has gone to war with a country with a majority white population and a non 3rd world country (World War 2 does not count since Japan give USA no choice). 

[I/O]

Shadow, there is a big difference between autonomy and independence. For example, my country has 7 autonomous states, but none of them are independent, although at times, I wouldn't mind if some were to be honest. BTW I don’t think SO was terribly autonomous under the SU rule which was how long ago? 20 Years or less IIRC

Georgia is an internationally recognised independent nation. It was part of the USSR, of which Russia was also a part. SO has never been recognised as a nation and Russia doesn't recognise it either as a nation.

I believe Medvedev was deputy chairman of the board of Gazprom. (I'll happily stand correction there) Shadow I never mentioned Russia giving away passports..................did someone else? I have no opinion on what the purpose, spoken or unspoken of NATO is, but whatever it is, it surely doesn’t sit well in Moscow. When is someone going to pull out the "This is ALL America's fault card"?

BC: Has the US actually provided transport for the Iraq based Georgian troops at this stage? I can't find anything reliable one way or the other on this one. I am aware of the Georgian request but......................? 

I/O

[BC]

Kievstar,

Yankees and Rebels come to mind.. Texans waving their sticks not to mention racial divides.. all in the US.. One country.  I've been here over 40 years and what you describe (hate) did not hit 'home' at all.. sure some may consider others arrogant or haughty or such but that's about it.  Belgium is unique with crossing out signs to towns and such, maybe a few bar fights.. Visit Antwerp while you are there.. very interesting multi-culti city including significant populations of Muslim and Jews that seem to get along just fine.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but it would be more fruitful if you could add some real substance to induce constructive discourse.

Europe is not worried about Russia and certainly not themselves.  EU expansion does bring challenges however.. I think it is a process that has gone a bit too fast.  They will deal with it just fine if 3rd party attempts to influence would cease.  I have two arms and two legs that seem to coordinate well for the most part.. stick a finger up my @ss though and that changes quickly.

[BC]

BC: Has the US actually provided transport for the Iraq based Georgian troops at this stage? I can't find anything reliable one way or the other on this one. I am aware of the Georgian request but......................? 

I/O

US aircraft have started to fly some of Georgia’s 2,000 troops in Iraq back home to join the fight in the breakaway province of South Ossetia, General David Petraeus, the top US commander in Iraq said today.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article4498032.ece

[Lit_1nce]

The first US military 'assistance' to Georgia in the form of transportation of 2000 Georgian troops from Iraq.  Paid for by the US taxpayer, on US planes (I assume).  If that is not throwing fuel in the fire...

I don't see how either side should have a problem with this.. I imagine they got to Iraq on US planes in the first place. You can't exactly keep the Georgians in Iraq against their will.

Personally, I think Bush's "coalition of the willing" is finally coming around to bite him in the butt. He's going to look pretty sad if he abandons them.. and other than talk, I don't see that much else is forthcoming.

[Mir]

Russia and USA will always quarrel but their more like brothers than they realize

That's true, they both compete with each other as regards who can commit the worst atrocities on other nations/people

[BC]

I don't see how either side should have a problem with this.. I imagine they got to Iraq on US planes in the first place. You can't exactly keep the Georgians in Iraq against their will.

No, but they could fly their soldiers out themselves.. If other transport was not available, have the soldiers lay down their arms before boarding.  I'm fairly sure equipment was also included but can't confirm that yet. It's the principle that concerns me.  On one hand asking RU to stop and the other providing direct assistance to do the opposite.  Long way from the 'hands off approach' stated by US officials in the beginning of this crisis.

What does 'hands off' mean? 

Next question will be whether the US pulls out their Military advisors and combat trainers from Georgia or leaves them there twiddling their thumbs?.  Now that Georgian troops are returning from Iraq what would be the purpose in keeping them there?

[Blues Fairy]

B/F: Your comments, whilst admirably patriotic in essence are entirely indicative of why Russia ultimately fell into the hole it did.

Your comparison doesn't make sense because SO and other regions were NOT annexed by Georgia. The opposite is actually the case, they broke away. Isn't that what Russia fought so hard to reverse in Chechnya? So called rebels who wanted to break away? Me thinks Auntie Rus is cherry picking a little.

I/O, let's not conjecture what my comments are indicative of.  When Russia is behaving like an obnoxious bully, you'll find me as far from "admirably patriotic" as can be.  But in the case of Georgia, Russia is facing an even worse and more obnoxious bully, who has been harassing and killing citizens and peacekeeping troops in two border enclaves, whatever you call them - nations or autonomies.  Like any country, Russia has the right to protect its citizens.  

Comparison with Chechnya is inaccurate, since you are omitting the terrorism factor there.  If you must invoke Chechnya, recall how Dudaev's government behaved towards the Russian population after 1991, and how Chechen terrorists with the help of their Middle Eastern colleagues blew up apartment buildings before the onset of the 2nd Chechen war.  Russia made a mistake of miring itself in this conflict with a militant and ruthless mountainous country which did nothing but guerilla for the past few centuries.  I hope in the current war with Georgia, Russia will be smarter.

[I/O]

I hope in the current war with Georgia, Russia will be smarter.

It may surprise you, but "Me Too"..!! Unfortunately, Russia got off to a fairly bad start because it has suffered heavy casualties in the propoganda war.

I/O

[kievstar]

Mir, USA is a long way for being as bad as France and England.  Over the past 500 years those two countries have done horrible things.  More so than the USA or Russia. 

[Shadow]

I/O I am pointing at the autonomous state because it seems that a lot of people regard this as a new conflict, where in truth it is something that has been brewing a long time.
Regarding Georgia, also note that Georgia became part of the Russian Empire in 1801, a long time before the USSR. Their separation and flirtation with NATO is nothing more than an attempt to get some money. By this war they might actually gain in economy, and that could be the result they looked for from the start.
One should not look at an invasion of an autonomous country, but at attack on peace keeping troops.
If in Iraq or Afghanistan, or in any other country, the peace keeping troops will be attacked, would the US not attack and do some bombardments to stop the attacks ?

Geargia proclaimed a 'full cease fire' then bombed he capital of SO once more. Russia knows the mentality and tricks of the Georgians, as they were well known in the USSR, and they will not accept any tricks that will allow Georgia to regroup for new attacks.
Russia has set clear conditions, full withdrawal from the SO region and political negotiations on the future. Seems quite simple to follow.

kievstar, US is catching up fast.

[Gator]

If you must invoke Chechnya, recall how Dudaev's government behaved towards the Russian population after 1991, and how Chechen terrorists with the help of their Middle Eastern colleagues blew up apartment buildings before the onset of the 2nd Chechen war.  

Chechen terrorists?  Or a cover-up of singularly evil acts by Putin's security forces to start a war - with the goal of solidifying Putin's power during a period of Russian citizen unrest about a troubled economy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings

The bombings ceased when a similar bomb was found and defused in an apartment block in the Russian city of Ryazan on September 23. Later in the evening Vladimir Putin praised the vigilance of the Ryazanians and ordered air attacks on Grozny, which marked the beginning of the Second Chechen War.[2] A few hours later, three Federal Security Service (FSB) agents who had planted the bomb were caught by the local police. This incident was declared to be a training exercise by the FSB director Nikolai Patrushev.

These suspicious events led to allegations that the bombings were in fact a "false flag" attack perpetrated by the FSB in order to legitimize the resumption of military activities in Chechnya and bring Vladimir Putin and the FSB to power, as described in books by David Satter,[3][4] Yuri Felshtinsky and Vladimir Pribylovsky,[1] and by Alexander Litvinenko and Anna Politkovskaya, who were both assassinated.[5] Russian Parliament member Yuri Shchekochikhin filed two motions for a parliamentary investigation of the events, but the motions were rejected by the Russian State Duma in March 2000. An independent[6] public commission to investigate the bombings chaired by Duma deputy Sergei Kovalev was hampered by government refusal to respond to its inquiries,[7] and its chairmen admitted that he has no evidence to support any version of the events.[8][9] Two key members of the Kovalev Commission, Sergei Yushenkov and Yuri Shchekochikhin, both Duma members, have since died in apparent assassinations. The Commission's lawyer, Mikhail Trepashkin, was arrested and jailed.

[Lit_1nce]

Here's a wiki timeline.. Don't know how accurate it is...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_War

From what I've read, it seems to me the whole thing is really about border control and the flow of goods into the country., tax evasion and smuggling.. If that tunnel goes, I don't think there is much left to fight about.. goods would have to come in from other more controlled access points.

[BC]

Putin criticises U.S. over South Ossetia

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Georgia/idUKLB3465120080811

Excerpts

"It is a shame that some of our partners are not helping us but, essentially, are hindering us," Putin said. "I mean ... the transfer by the United States of a Georgian contingent in Iraq with military transport planes practically to the conflict zone."

"The very scale of this cynicism is astonishing -- the attempt to turn white into black, black into white and to adeptly portray victims of aggression as aggressors and place the responsibility for the consequences of the aggression on the victims."

Georgian officials confirmed the return of almost all of Georgia's 2,000-strong troop contingent from Iraq, and their immediate deployment just south of South Ossetia.

That was very quick..

[BC]

Here's a wiki timeline.. Don't know how accurate it is...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_War

There is another one here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7551576.stm

THURSDAY 7 AUGUST

Georgian forces and separatists in South Ossetia agree to observe a ceasefire and hold Russian-mediated talks to end their long-simmering conflict.

Hours later, Georgian forces launch a surprise attack, sending a large force against the breakaway province and reaching the capital Tskhinvali.

South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity accuses Georgia of a "perfidious and base step".

The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia says the operation is intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government says the troops are "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians".

Russia's special envoy in South Ossetia, Yury Popov, says Georgia's military operation shows that it cannot be trusted and he calls on Nato to reconsider plans to offer it membership.

So quite conflicting reports..  I don't think much will really be known until the dust settles.

Examples:

Georgia claims that more than 50 Russian bombers flew sorties overnight, although Russian military spokesmen dismissed the allegation as absurd. A bomb was dropped near the civilian airport in Tbilisi. 

There was no obvious sign, however, that the city [Gori] had been devastated by a massive air attack, or that Georgian forces had repulsed the Russians there last night - two of the claims that Mr Saakashvili has made this morning.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4503176.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2

[steviej]

Senator McCain this morning, Republican candidate for president:

"Americans wishing to spend August vacationing with their families or watching the Olympics may wonder why their newspapers and television screens are filled with images of war in the small country of Georgia. Concerns about what occurs there might seem distant and unrelated to the many other interests America has around the world. And yet Russian aggression against Georgia is both a matter of urgent moral and strategic importance to the United States of America. "

Indeed, Americans may wonder ....  (my italics)


How 'bout this version of the story:


[US Invades Northern Mexico!!]
"Russians wishing to spend August vacationing with their families or watching the Olympics may wonder why their newspapers and television screens are filled with images of war in Northern Mexico. Concerns about what occurs there might seem distant and unrelated to the many other interests Russian has around the world. And yet American aggression against Mexico is both a matter of urgent moral and strategic importance to the Russian Federation. "

[Ronnie]

Shorty after the April refusal of NATO to allow Georgia and Ukraine (Thanks again to France and Germany), Russia began handing out passports to anyone who would take one.  In a Russia Today, report in April (still on youtube), Putin announced Russia would move to protect it's citizens (think about how the FSB protected it's citizens with the apartment bombings...sorry BF, it wasn't the Chechens).

This pretense is nothing new, Hitler used it to justify the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938.

With a trumped up pretense, and emboldened by the fact that Georgia did not have the NATO shield to protect them.  The only remaining pieces of the plan were timing and how to make it look as if Georgia started it.

Ten days before the Olympics, with Russian-supplied artillery, the S. Ossetian troops began shelling Georgian troops while Russian Peacekeepers did nothing to stop them, and why should they, the shelling was planned months earlier by the Kremlin.  When Georgia's responded with shelling of their own, Russian forces, which had been earlier moved into the region and into Abkhazia... opened up with both barrels. 
Russian jets began immediately to hit targets inside Georgia including Tblisi itself and bombed the Black Sea port of Poti, Bombs have fallen along the route of the pipeline but have missed due to its being buried.

At the same time Putin was saying it would protect it's passport holders (did I mention the apartment bombings?) it was also signalling that Georgia would be punished..  During a conversation with Condolezza Rice, Sergei Lavrov exclaims, "Saakashvili must go!"

Why must he go?  Because of S. Ossetia?  Guess again.  His desire to have the protection of NATO?  Bingo!

Today, Putin's troops have taken the Georgian city of Gori.  In a few days we can expect an all out attack on Tblisi resulting in a great many Georgain casualties.  Russia will occupy Georgia and install it's own pro-Kremlin government while the west sits by and patting themselves on the back for not admitting Georgia into NATO.  The truth is Putin ONLY invaded because he knew Georgia would be defenseless.  Alliances are designed to and do prevent such wars and aggressions of the large against the small.

Someone mentioned the Ossetians are citizions of Russia because they may have been born in the old Soviet Union, therefore Russia is justified in protecting them.  Interesting observation.  May I also point out that all of Georgia was under the FSU.  Who is to protect these "Russian" citizens from the Kremlin?

[OlgaH]

Thursday night, a war started in South Ossetia. Tskhinvali, the capital, was bombed by the Georgian Air Force during almost the entire day. By the midday, as Tskhinvali had been destroyed completely, Russia’s troops entered the breakaway republic. According to the information of the South Ossetia’s authorities, thousands of people were killed during the hostilities.
War for peace

The day before there was no sign telling you that the war was imminent. After skirmishes, which lasted during the entire week, Georgia’s President Mikhail Saakashvili called on the South Ossetian party to cease to fire and start talks about defining South Ossetia’s autonomous status. Mr Saakashvili, who made a TV address, stated that the negotiations would begin on Friday and that starting from 6 p.m. Thursday the Georgian party announced truce. However, after it firing continued, becoming even more intense, witnesses reported. South Ossetia’s Information and Press Committee spokesperson told Kommersant that the Georgian party was the first to open fire.

http://www.kommersant.com/p1009540/r_527/War_in_South_Ossetia/

[Shadow]

Ronnie you are correct that all Georgian citizens are equally able to obtain a Russian passport if they wish to get one.
This goes equally for Ukrainians, Kazahks and all others.
Georgians are notorious in the FSU for deceiving and behavior. Calling a cease fire while continuing to shoot is one of them. Signing a peace treaty they have no intention of keeping another.

[BC]

Someone mentioned the Ossetians are citizions of Russia because they may have been born in the old Soviet Union, therefore Russia is justified in protecting them.  Interesting observation.  May I also point out that all of Georgia was under the FSU.  Who is to protect these "Russian" citizens from the Kremlin?

Ronnie,

Regardless of how passports are issued, it's what's in the bearer's heart that counts.  Where are all these passport carrying refugees going? North or south?  They still passing them out.. can I get one?

You might call it taking advantage of convenience, but we all do in one way or another.  I already have two of them.. where should I go? (yeah, I know.. probably to hell right?)