Russia is at it again!

[Blues Fairy]

Sure, and it wasn't the Chechens who invaded Dagestan and attempted to install an Islamic republic there; and it wasn't the Chechens who later blasted Moscow subway stations and captured Beslan school.  It was all FSB provocation.

[Ronnie]

Georgians are notorious in the FSU for deceiving and behavior.

Sure Shadow, and jokes are made about the Armenians too, oh and the Ukrainians, Moldovans...and don't forget the Jews or anybody who lives in a rural area, the Urals or Siberia.  So, what would your point be?

[Shadow]

Sure Shadow, and jokes are made about the Armenians too, oh and the Ukrainians, Moldovans...and don't forget the Jews or anybody who lives in a rural area, the Urals or Siberia.  So, what would your point be?

Not to trust them in any proposals, but to put them in to a position where they have no other way than to negotiate.

[Ronnie]

Sure, and it wasn't the Chechens who invaded Dagestan and attempted to install an Islamic republic there; and it wasn't the Chechens who later blasted Moscow subway stations and captured Beslan school.  It was all FSB provocation.

You're trying to throw up a smoke screen BF.  The issue was the bombings of the apartment buildings by Putin's henchmen at FSB in the context of his claim that the Kremlin will protect "citizens."  Putin is the consumate narcissist and cares for no person but himself.  He's the second coming of Napoleon Bonaparte, only Napoleon was taller.

[BC]

Not to trust them in any proposals, but to put them in to a position where they have no other way than to negotiate.

A very familiar tactic IIRC used in the middle east..  Something about 'on our terms'..

[Ronnie]

Not to trust them in any proposals, but to put them in to a position where they have no other way than to negotiate.

Saakashvili is not a typical Georgian if that's what you're trying to say.  Look him up on wikipedia.  He's a stand up guy who resigned from the Shevardnadze government rather than be part of a corrupt administration.  On his inauguration day, he said, "it's time for the government to fear the people."

He was educated in Kyiv, Paris and the United States.  Speaks Georgian, Russian, Ukrainian, French and English...all fluently.  He's lived and worked outside the FSU.  He, as I said, it not your typical Georgian. 

Putin on the other hand has never lived outside the iron curtain.  He wanted to be KGB since he was a young boy.  Now, Putin has ordered that Saakashvili join a long list of those who deserve "punishment"  Putin has made his entire career one of punishing people...people who see the evil in him and aren't afraid to point it out.   And, Russians love him for it.  As long as he doesn't add their name to his list.

[Ronnie]

A very familiar tactic IIRC used in the middle east..  Something about 'on our terms'..

BC.  You obviously have issues with the US.  Gone 40 years you say?  I'm sure there's a story behind it, but we won't go there.

[Blues Fairy]

You're trying to throw up a smoke screen BF.  The issue was the bombings of the apartment buildings by Putin's henchmen at FSB in the context of his claim that the Kremlin will protect "citizens." Putin is the consumate narcissist and cares for no person but himself.  He's the second coming of Napoleon Bonaparte, only Napoleon was taller.

And you are trying to justify the Chechens who are consummate terrorists and have shown all their true colors in the past decade.  I am not a supporter of Putin and his politics, but please allow some doubt in the theories on the apartment bombings; none of those theories have yet received 100% proof and investigation is still under way.  FSB certainly had a hand, and Putin certainly used the bombings to his political ends.  On the other hand, there exist numerous other examples of terrorist acts where Chechens were proven culprits so don't paint them as angels.  

Whoever brought up Chechnya in this thread was alleging that since Russia fought its separatists, Georgia had full right to fight its own separatists.  I say, neither country was right in employing dirty politics in waging these wars.  Russia, in the case of S. Ossettia, ought to draw lessons from the past and respond to Georgia's offensive cleanly, effectively, and quickly, before the war spreads out and involves external participation.

P.S. Narcissist, second coming of Napoleon? Saakashvili seems a more accurate reincarnation, if you look at him closely.

[BC]

You're trying to throw up a smoke screen BF.  The issue was the bombings of the apartment buildings by Putin's henchmen at FSB in the context of his claim that the Kremlin will protect "citizens."  Putin is the consumate narcissist and cares for no person but himself.  He's the second coming of Napoleon Bonaparte, only Napoleon was taller.

Ronnie,

Conspiracy theories abound.. remember this one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

We'll maybe know more in 75 years about the apartment bombings.. and maybe more about 9/11..

One note for all.. Both wiki articles say these are 'theories'... and not substantiated fact.

[OlgaH]

On 20th September 1990  South Ossetia declared its independence from Georgia. The first South Ossetia supreme power election was in December 9 1990. But Georgia acknowledged the election to be illegitimate and decreed to abolish sovereignty of  South Ossetia, and on the next day the Georgian government implemented the state of emergency on the territory of South Ossetia. On 6th January 1991 Georgia put its army on the territory of South Ossetia, activated the operations and started th blockade of the autonomy of South Ossetia. As result more than 10 thousand people left South Ossetia for North Ossetia and about 30 thousand Ossetians left Georgia. During the armed conflicts 1991-1992 about 300 Osetians disappeared without a trace, more than 40 thousand got status of refugee, and more than 100 Ossetian rural area were destroyed by Georgian army. 

The armed conflicts were stopped when Boris Yeltsin and Eduard Shevardnadze signed the Dagomys agreements.

South Ossetia became an independent republic in January 1992 de facto, but Georgia could not let it go.

In 2004 Mikheil Saakashvili has became the president of Georgia, and the main subject of his presidential campaign has been South Ossetia. He has violated the Dagomys agreements.


   



     

[Ronnie]

On 20th September 1990  South Ossetia declared its independence from Georgia. The first South Ossetia supreme power election was in December 9 1990. But Georgia acknowledged the election to be illegitimate and decreed to abolish sovereignty of  South Ossetia, and on the next day the Georgian government implemented the state of emergency on the territory of South Ossetia. On 6th January 1991 Georgia put its army on the territory of South Ossetia, activated the operations and started th blockade of the autonomy of South Ossetia. As result more than 10 thousand people left South Ossetia for North Ossetia and about 30 thousand Ossetians left Georgia. During the armed conflicts 1991-1992 about 300 Osetians disappeared without a trace, more than 40 thousand got status of refugee, and more than 100 Ossetian rural area were destroyed by Georgian army. 

The armed conflicts were stopped when Boris Yeltsin and Eduard Shevardnadze signed the Dagomys agreements.

South Ossetia became an independent republic in January 1992 de facto, but Georgia could not let it go.

In 2004 Mikheil Saakashvili has became the president of Georgia, and the main subject of his presidential campaign has been South Ossetia. He has violated the Dagomys agreements.
     

Olga, if Ossetia is a de facto independent state, why did not at least Moscow recognize it?  Hmmmm.  Could Chechya have something to do with it?
What's good for the goose does not seem to be good for the gander in this case.

As to the apartment bombings.  No terrorist group claimed responsibility.  This is rather out of character for terrorists.  Further, the bombings stopped abruptly when a bomb similar to the the others was found by Ryazanian police in an apartment building in that city.  Three hours later 3 FSB agents were arrested.  The cover story by the FSB director was that the FSB agents who planted the Ryazan bomb were conducting a "training execise".  The next day Putin re-entered Chechnya.  What part of this picture need further paint?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings

[Shadow]

Ronnie as Saakashvili has a Dutch wife I might in short time meet him when he takes refuge here. Then I will make up my mind on his 'non-typical' behaviour. He resigned as a start to his campaign. Fighting corruption always makes a nice statement to the West, unfortunately it is impossible without taking away the basic grounds.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia are de facto independent states. However as long as they are not de jura independent, international recognition will be hard. Moscow has not recognized them as they were part of the negotiations and had no reason to offend Georgia.

[OlgaH]

Olga, if Ossetia is a de facto independent state, why did not at least Moscow recognize it? 

as the president of South Ossetia Eduard Kokoity said "in supporting of the interests of the citizens of Russian Federation who live on the territory of South Ossetia" May be because of it.

More over after the collapse of USSR the new government of Russian Federation long time made its decisions in politics holding the opinions of G7. That is main "why" 

In 2004 the people and president of South Ossetia to make a request to the Government of Russian Federation to include South Ossetia into Russian Federation. The issue is under consideration. During the last years about 90% of Ossetians obtained the Russian Federation citizenship.

In economic sphere Russia recognized South Ossetia as independent state in 2006, and now Russia is ready to recognize South Ossetia as absolutely independent state.

 

[BC]

BC.  You obviously have issues with the US.  Gone 40 years you say?  I'm sure there's a story behind it, but we won't go there.

Sorry to disappoint you.. no mysteries or wild stories at all.  I do enjoy a niche of privacy though but wouldn't mind entertaining an off board chat if you'd like. The down and dirty  version.. OMB.. overseas military brat, later enlisted, sent back overseas, honorably discharged at the end of the cold war with what they called a European out.. meaning I didn't have to go back to the us to be formally discharged.  Had a local GF, later wife, lived overseas ever since.

If anything, my issue is terminal objectivity..  Yours? paranoia?

[steviej]

Sorry to disappoint you.. no mysteries or wild stories at all.  I do enjoy a niche of privacy though but wouldn't mind entertaining an off board chat if you'd like. The down and dirty  version.. OMB.. overseas military brat, later enlisted, sent back overseas, honorably discharged at the end of the cold war with what they called a European out.. meaning I didn't have to go back to the us to be formally discharged.  Had a local GF, later wife, lived overseas ever since.

If anything, my issue is terminal objectivity..  Yours? paranoia?

To be honest, I think BC has a good objective view of US international shenanigans.

[P.S. Ronnie -good thread !! Lots of good stuff coming out here]

Ronnie, I'm curious: would you want Russia threatening military measures and "This will not stand!" Dogma against the US if we, for whatever reasons, decided it was to our best interest to invade Mexico? Do you think Russia has any right to try to interfere if we invade Mexico? (make up your own reasons, chasing terrorist cells, anything you can think of.)

[OlgaH]

The territory and national issue between Georgia and South Ossetia is a historical issue.

Georgia vs. South Ossetia: roots of a 100-year conflict
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28654

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

[Ronnie]

Sorry to disappoint you.. no mysteries or wild stories at all.  I do enjoy a niche of privacy though but wouldn't mind entertaining an off board chat if you'd like. The down and dirty  version.. OMB.. overseas military brat, later enlisted, sent back overseas, honorably discharged at the end of the cold war with what they called a European out.. meaning I didn't have to go back to the us to be formally discharged.  Had a local GF, later wife, lived overseas ever since.

If anything, my issue is terminal objectivity..  Yours? paranoia?

Objectivity?  Yeah right.  Everything than happens in the world, you see as America's fault.  News flash.  The topic of this thread and the events in the Caucauses are not about America.  They're about the Kremlin.  Yet, you want to talk about 9/11 conspiracies and America's involvement in Iraq and a fictitous invasion of Mexico.  Anything but the real issue at hand.

[Ronnie]

The territory and national issue between Georgia and South Ossetia is a historical issue.

Georgia vs. South Ossetia: roots of a 100-year conflict
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28654

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

Olga, Please, my dear.  You are focused on the small corner of the picture.  The big picture is now becoming clearer.  It's about Russia vs. Georgia.  The separatist areas gave Russia the pretext to go into Tblisi to punish the western leaning government.  If this stands, God help Ukraine.

[Shadow]

Olga, Please, my dear.  You are focused on the small corner of the picture.  The big picture is now becoming clearer.  It's about Russia vs. Georgia.  The separatist areas gave Russia the pretext to go into Tblisi to punish the western leaning government.  If this stands, God help Ukraine.

Of course. Georgia violating previous agreements regarding Abkhazia and South Ossetia have nothing to do with it.

[OlgaH]

In 2006 the president of South Ossetia said: "South Ossetia has never left the Russian Federation. We will aspire to the integration with the Russian Federation because it is only guarantor of reservation of Ossetians as a nation".

http://www.ossetia.ru/interview/eduard-kokoiti

_____________________________________________
Ronnie, my dear I think you are mistaken 

[steviej]

... a fictitous invasion of Mexico. ...

What's wrong with a hypothetical analogy? I'm curious, would you want Russia trying to stick her nose in if we decide to invade Mexico?

[Lit_1nce]

If Mexico (actually Cuba might be better) were launching mortars into San Diego, I don't think anyone would have a problem if we crossed the border.

[Shadow]

Unrelated, but interesting as comparison.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/08/11/afghan.fighting/index.html

U.S.-led troops in Afghanistan said Monday that eight civilians were killed when coalition aircraft bombed a compound not knowing that the suspected Taliban militants they were targeting had taken "hostages" including young children.
The attack, which also left 25 militants dead, took place following an abortive ambush on a coalition convoy route by suspected Taliban in central Oruzgan province, a military statement said.
After the attack, the militants "fled into a neighboring compound where they held 11 non-combatants hostage, including several children and an infant," the coalition said.
Three survivors found at the compound were given medical treatment after the fighting ended, it said.
"The Taliban uses innocent civilians' homes, taking them by force to attack Afghan and Coalition forces," said Juma Gul, the Head Provincial Police Chief of Oruzgan.
"If civilians get killed during these attacks, the responsibility falls on the Taliban and their terrorist sponsors."
Dozens of civilians have died during operations by international troops targeting Afghan villiages with airstrikes, many of them in recent months.

[BC]

Objectivity?  Yeah right.  Everything than happens in the world, you see as America's fault.  News flash.  The topic of this thread and the events in the Caucauses are not about America.  They're about the Kremlin.  Yet, you want to talk about 9/11 conspiracies and America's involvement in Iraq and a fictitous invasion of Mexico.  Anything but the real issue at hand.

You're a funny man Ronnie...

I believe Gator brought up the apartment stuff, you referenced it in a later post IIRC and I provided a counter point.

Olga,

This is what Ronnie is saying:

Today, Putin's troops have taken the Georgian city of Gori.  In a few days we can expect an all out attack on Tblisi resulting in a great many Georgain casualties.  Russia will occupy Georgia and install it's own pro-Kremlin government while the west sits by and patting themselves on the back for not admitting Georgia into NATO.  The truth is Putin ONLY invaded because he knew Georgia would be defenseless.  Alliances are designed to and do prevent such wars and aggressions of the large against the small.

I say the proof is in the pudding.. RU will not occupy Georgia unless something really crazy happens like Georgia again attacking these two provinces again..  At the moment the Russians seem to be selectively bombing secondary targets that reduce the possibility of this happening.  There are rumors about Gori.. but I believe no Russian troops in any quantity have been sighted there. ditto for Tblisi.

Georgian officials have also accused Russian troops of seizing control of the central Georgian town of Gori, which is located just outside the boundary of South Ossetia. Russian officials have flatly denied that Russian troops are in the town. A reporter for the Reuters news agency, who was in Gori Monday, said he saw no trace of Russian troops.

Voice of America
http://voanews.com/english/2008-08-11-voa59.cfm

 

[BC]

If Mexico (actually Cuba might be better) were launching mortars into San Diego, I don't think anyone would have a problem if we crossed the border.

I'll buy those Cuban mortars right away..