Russia is at it again!

[Misha]

The US through NATO is poking the bear with the stick and then get outraged when the bear gets angry! 

Well, bears are unpredictable animals. Grizzly bears, for example, have been know to charge hikers, stop, then turn around. If attacked by a black bear, it is best to make yourself appear as big and threatening as possible: throwing your arms up and not running away. If it thinks you are a threat, it will likely turn around and run into the forest.

If NATO stands by and does nothing, then the bear will know that it can do what it pleases without facing any consequences. 

[diverboy70]

Misha

I agree with you. But you also have to realize that Russia is not going to quietly sit and watch NATO coming to close to their sphere of influence!

The US is getting so used to beeing the only super power in the world. This is slowely changing as Russia slowely is getting back it's power. This is not about the Russian nationals in Georgia. This is a show of power by Russia, thats why the response also was inproportional!

[Diplomacy]

Agreed!

I have just been following this thread sporadically lately. But I sure can understand some of the motives of Russias reactions in Georgia. Georgia joining NATO would NOT be in the interest of Russia or in the interest of world peace. Russia can say that they have real strategic interests in Georgia, no one can doubt that! For the US to say they have real strategic interests there or in Iraq or in Afganistan is just BS!

And honestly NATO has nothing to do in that area. They are throwing off the whole power balance by going in there! It is a game of balance of influence, and the US and NATO should stay the hxxx out of that region.

It is not strategic interests in Iraq.  IMO I think it is hard to understand that many Americans are willing to die to give someone else the freedoms they believe in.  This is not just Military, good citizens are all over the world risking their lives to do something about it and not just talk about it.

To give you an idea, I am assisting right now in a major mess.  We have a container of Aide for the Ukraine, that can not leave.  It is in a warehouse in Atlanta.  Why you ask?  Because the HAC in the Ukraine does not care to sign the proper documents.

So, we have patriots there self funded. Trying to improve the economy, good people that cared to donate the aide.  Mind you we have to unlock the container and make sure the nobody stole it all.  Then lock it back up, and ship it to the next destination from Odessa.  Then check again to see if it was stolen.

This was all staged and Georgia did not use restraint, but Russia very much has had this all planned out.  It is no coincidence we were there last month supply arms and training.  This has been a long time coming.

Russia does not want a pro western government also, that is another fact to add to this.  Destroy this one and control the next.  Are we suppose to just let that happen?



It is meant as insight, not Look at us Americans attitude.

[Jack]

And honestly NATO has nothing to do in that area. 

Isn't Turkey part of NATO?   If not forget it and the statement stands as is.  If Turkey is part of NATO it borders Georgia and as such what do you mean "nothing to do in that area"?  A bordering country is not  "in the area"?  Who's not to say Georgia today, Turkey tomorrow. So of course NATO would be concerned.

[diverboy70]

Russia does not want a pro western government also, that is another fact to add to this.  Destroy this one and control the next.  Are we suppose to just let that happen?



It is meant as insight, not Look at us Americans attitude.

I hear you!

It's a delicate situation. Russia wanting to owerthrow a regime of a sovereign state, even if they will not admit it! Im just saying that I understand the reasons of Russias actions. But I don't think the US should get too involved in this. It need some real good diplomatic skills from a more neutral country to get the parts to negotiation table. The solution is not US or NATO to put up the pressaure! It will just make Russia more determined.

[diverboy70]

Jack

Yes it is, and why are you surprise of the Russian reaction?! Russia might have unwillingly accepted that. But how would the US have reacted if Canada would have planned to join joined the Warshaw Pact in the 80's?

[diverboy70]

Anyway, I think Russia has reached it goals now. There is no way that NATO is going to include Georgia now. If they have any scence they will see it will throw of the balance of power to much!

If they include Georgia they can not be called a "organization for peace" anymore! Not saying that Gergia should not continue its western cooperation just leave the military cooperation out of it!

[Misha]

Misha

I agree with you. But you also have to realize that Russia is not going to quietly sit and watch NATO coming to close to their sphere of influence!

The US is getting so used to beeing the only super power in the world. This is slowely changing as Russia slowely is getting back it's power. This is not about the Russian nationals in Georgia. This is a show of power by Russia, thats why the response also was inproportional!

What exactly does Russia gain from a sphere of influence? What does its sphere of influence gain from Russia? Was it really afraid that NATO would establish itself in Georgia and use it as a means of invading Russia?

The problems with a "show of power" is that you end up looking like a bully. Yes, you may end up forcing neighboring countries such as Georgia to fear you, but they will never respect you and they will look to an even bigger "power" to protect them.

As a Canadian, I understand what it means to be in the sphere of influence of a much bigger and powerful country. However, overall, the Americans are pretty good neighbors. We disagree about a number of things, but overall we profit from our relationship with them. This is why, to answer your comment to Jack, Canada would never have sought to join the Warsaw Pact. Spheres of influence can be achieved through force, but have to be maintained by respect, and respect is not gained through fear and bullying.

[Jack]

Yes it is, and why are you surprise of the Russian reaction?!

Diverboy, I do not know why you are stating that I am surprised of the Russian action.  I have certaintly not written anything that would reflect that.  Although I am personnaly disappointed by Russia's actions, I am certaintly not surprised by them.

My only comment to this very long thread was in response to your post that NATO had nothing to do in that area. As a NATO member does have a common border with Georgia I was questioning how you could make such a statement.

[diverboy70]

What exactly does Russia gain from a sphere of influence? What does its sphere of influence gain from Russia? Was it really afraid that NATO would establish itself in Georgia and use it as a means of invading Russia?

The problems with a "show of power" is that you end up looking like a bully. Yes, you may end up forcing neighboring countries such as Georgia to fear you, but they will never respect you and they will look to an even bigger "power" to protect them.

As a Canadian, I understand what it means to be in the sphere of influence of a much bigger and powerful country. However, overall, the Americans are pretty good neighbors. We disagree about a number of things, but overall we profit from our relationship with them. This is why, to answer your comment to Jack, Canada would never have sought to join the Warsaw Pact. Spheres of influence can be achieved through force, but have to be maintained by respect, and respect is not gained through fear and bullying.

The "show of power" is not towards Georgia, they are just the means. It is to show for NATO, that they can't get too close without Russia showing some reactions. Is that so hard to understand?

The comparison with Canada was just hypothetical, it was just a comparison in how states with great powers would react when "the enemy" is getting in to close. It was just a way to try to put it in an American perspective

[BC]

Well, regardless of whatever happened, seems now it is a very basic discourse..

Possession is nine tenths of the law.

[Makkin]

Hi,

  Peace keeping forces again in Europe?

  Seems Europe has more peace keeping forces needed than any other place?

  When is the last time Australia,Britain,America,Canada, and a host of other countries needed this.

   Well, United States has never needed them nor has any of the other countries listed because in our scope of area we just don't have wars amonst ourselves. Can you imagine what the world would look like if we all had civil wars in each continent?

   I am sure that Russia is a bully as always in the defined area's of Europe but is the MO for Europe over thousands of years.

Makkin

[diverboy70]

Hi,

  Peace keeping forces again in Europe?

  Seems Europe has more peace keeping forces needed than any other place?

  When is the last time Australia,Britain,America,Canada, and a host of other countries needed this.

   Well, United States has never needed them nor has any of the other countries listed because in our scope of area we just don't have wars amonst ourselves. Can you imagine what the world would look like if we all had civil wars in each continent?

   I am sure that Russia is a bully as always in the defined area's of Europe but is the MO for Europe over thousands of years.

Makkin

Can maybe have something to do with that Europe consists of a lot of different countries with a long and varying history. You can't seriously compare "Europe" with USA, Canada or Australia, as an entity?!!! 

[Makkin]

Hello,

  The usa consists of 50 states and Australia consists of states and territories as does Canada and Great Britain.
   Are you assuming because a land mass consists of states or countries then it has no ability to be classified as a war found historical society with many UN peace-keeping missions?
   I suppose you could say Europe does not exist because it has countries but in the end that statement would also be foolish. The truth of the matter as history shows clearly is that Europe has fought itself many times over and this is just another example.
   Maybe you should see countries and continents like North America,Australia, Breat Britain,and many others and one's who are proud to say that we do not fight each other in a civilsed society amongst ourselves rather than paint with a broad brush and use countries as an excuse for use-less war and killing.

Makkin

[diverboy70]

Makkin

I don't know how to say this in a nice way...

You need to get back to the history books! Because you have no idea what you are talking about!

The "states" of the US, which in itself is a vey young country ,can in no way be compared with the Sovereign states of Europe, many with a a political history of several hundreds years! There are cultures in Europe that died out before the US even existed! Australia started out as a deportation place for criminals from Europe, and of my knowledge it does not consists of seperate sovereign states. Britain have had a lot of blody wars between the"states" in it's early days, and would defenetily have been a place for the peace keeping troops, if there were any in that time! And just for your knowledge, the Great Brittain is a very integrated part of Europe!

I don't even know why Im explaining this to you! 

T

[diverboy70]

Makkin

I guess you concider Africa a country as well, just as the US and Austrailia! 

[wxman]

I kind of like this commentary on this whole mess.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,403401,00.html

[diverboy70]

I have problem with the term "the beast" doesn't seem like objective journalism to me! I don't really give jouralists using those terms any merit at all. The best thing is to ignore them totally! I must say that both the Swedish and Finnish media has been able too keep the reporting on a very objective level!

[wxman]

Hi,

  Peace keeping forces again in Europe?

  Seems Europe has more peace keeping forces needed than any other place?

  When is the last time Australia,Britain,America,Canada, and a host of other countries needed this.

   Well, United States has never needed them nor has any of the other countries listed because in our scope of area we just don't have wars amonst ourselves. Can you imagine what the world would look like if we all had civil wars in each continent?

   I am sure that Russia is a bully as always in the defined area's of Europe but is the MO for Europe over thousands of years.

Makkin

To be fair, the UN has really only been around since the end of WWII. If it was around since 1700, I'm sure there would have been a peace keeping force in the US during our revolutionary war, our civil war, and most likely the Mexican American war.  Periods of peace on this globe are a rarity, with war the norm. Man can't get along with himself. Never can, never will.  

[wxman]

I have problem with the term "the beast" doesn't seem like objective journalism to me! I don't really give jouralists using those terms any merit at all. The best thing is to ignore them totally! I must say that both the Swedish and Finnish media has been able too keep the reporting on a very objective level!

Interesting that Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt is comparing what Russia did with Hitler's foreign policy. And apparently the US reaction is absurd? Seems at least in Sweden the government officials are even more extreme.

http://www.thelocal.se/13596/20080809/

[Blues Fairy]

I kind of like this commentary on this whole mess.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,403401,00.html

Is USA's dependence on Russian oil really so high as to demonize Russia like this?  I think it's domestic frustration talking, and Russia has very little to do with it.  Sure, Pelosi is the primary cause of the Russian-Georgian war now.

[Lit_1nce]

Fox news... nuff said.

This is interesting from the AP ..

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was headed to Georgia to ask the U.S. ally to to sign a cease-fire agreement with Russia that includes apparent concessions to Moscow but preserves Georgian borders, a U.S. official said Thursday.  The pact fleshes out a French-brokered agreement giving Russian peacekeepers the express right to patrol beyond South Ossetia, the disputed border region at the heart of the conflict.


So, if I get this right.. It preserves Georgian borders, but the peacekeepers can patrol beyond the "problem area"... I forsee years of problems with this arrangement.  Why not just fence the borders off and be done with it ?

[steviej]

I agree with diverboy about NATO encroachment. Since the fall of USSR government, NATO has added 10 countries pushing to the EAST right up to Russian's doorstep. NATO is a military alliance. This aggressive movement and expansion to the East was primarily pushed by the US. We still have many cold war dumbos and belligerants in US government and state departments. Few of the posters in this thread seem to ask themselves, "What would I do if I was Russia in these circumstances ?" I believe Russia has a right, by use of force if necessary, to defend against NATO encroachment, to rise again to a dominate world power, hopefully through mostly peaceful means, to consider the re-annexation of territories primarily of ethnic Russians back to Russia by plebicite (SO may be a good example), and to maximize their strategic position w.r.t. oil/gas position in the world. The US does all of this all the time, and has since the end of WWII aggressively.

The fact that US soldiers are in Georgia is a disturbing presence to me, as a US citizen. Bush has also just announced we're going to give lots of "aid" now to Georgia. Aid? We have NO money !! We are the largest debtor nation in the world now. My sons are burdened with a national debt and trade deficits that means the sweat of their brow for decades of their lives are already committed to paying back China, Saudia Arabia, and many other international powers that Bush, et al have borrowed trillions of dollars from. The US is simply insane in its current foreign policy state. Someone earlier said something about Americans wanting to go everywhere in the world, fight in everyone's fights because we want to help the "good guys". There is nothing American about that. US guys need to reread the principles of the Founding Fathers about the long term security of a republic of democratic states. They emphatically say two things: first, do NOT get involved in foreign wars. Second: do NOT get seduced into thinking we are the freedom fighters of the world.


The US needs to keeps its nose out of everybody else's business, good or bad. Our roads are decaying, our bridges are falling, our children cannot afford public university anymore, we have the largest government deficit in history and in the world right now, jobs are going overseas by the 10s of thousdands every month, we have 300,000 - 400,000 illegal mexicans crossing the border every year, we have a social security system that will be bankrupt in a few years. What the hell are our leaders doing? Bush even committed some $3Billion (or was it $30Billion) to the "global fight against aids" ??????? We have lost our bearings.

[Misha]

This is Poland's reaction to Russia's campaign in Georgia:

US, Poland agree to missile defense deal

By VANESSA GERA and MONIKA SCISLOWSKA – 1 hour ago

WARSAW, Poland (AP) — Poland and the United States reached an agreement Thursday that will see a battery of American missiles established inside Poland, the prime minister said, announcing a plan that has infuriated Russia and raised the specter of an escalation of tension with the region's communist-era master.

The deal, which Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said was to be signed later Thursday in Warsaw by Poland and the United States, includes what he called a "mutual commitment" between the two nations — beyond that of NATO — to come to each other's assistance in case of danger.

Source: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hdNtXPW9-1UZEmhgLC5VZ3dDa25wD92I7QP82.

As I noted, if you play the bully and try to impose respect through force, this will push other countries to seek protection.

The deal might have been concluded even without what happened in Georgia, but I doubt it would have been concluded so quickly and with such enthusiasm by Poland if Russia had not invaded Georgia.

[wxman]

Is USA's dependence on Russian oil really so high as to demonize Russia like this?  I think it's domestic frustration talking, and Russia has very little to do with it.  Sure, Pelosi is the primary cause of the Russian-Georgian war now.

For the oil companies it was purely about greed, not supplying the US with oil. Russian oil would never make it to the US. The oil companies sold their soul for the sake of profit. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the oil companies saw Russia as a quick and huge money making machine with all it's oil. Their greed for the money helped create widespread corruptrion in the early years of the new Russia government. Because of that, Russia needed a strong armed leader to prevent the looting of it's resources. Putin fit the bill.  Putin was what Russia needed at the time. But as with any politician with that much power, over time it will get to his head. John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton could have not said it any better. "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

As far as Pelosi, she just a fool.