Russia is at it again!

[diverboy70]

Maybe the bunker building business will start profiting again..

Yes, I think this would be a good way to make the first million. But its questionable if I will ever enjoy that million!

As BC says it's sad! We are heading back to the cold war. And it's not only Russias fault, even if some here want to make it look like that!

[Ronnie]

Had this happened, we would have a real intenational crises now, really threatening the world peace, and not a regional one as this really is!

So it is your belief then Diverboy, that Russia for the first time in history would have attacked a NATO member?   Putin likes his wealth and power.  He would not commit suicide by doing what you suggest.

[SANDRO43]

an American attack on Russia: submarines launch nuclear missiles off of Russia's Pacific Coast and cruise missile using both nuclear and traditional bombs take out Russia's nuclear defenses

The BGM-109 Tomahawk has an operational range of 2,500 km

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-109_Tomahawk#Launch_systems

If launched off Russia's Pacific Coast, a Tomahawk would just reach Mongolia's Gobi desert. Is the Pentagon seriously planning to lay waste what is already a wasteland ?

[diverboy70]

Ronnie

I really don't know. I think Russia feels really threatened by NATO getting too close today. And it is just stupid of NATO to even concider a Georgian membership. Then the should change slogan "Partnership for war"

[Ronnie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ballistic_Missile_Treaty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Conventional_Armed_Forces_in_Europe

Fact is that RU did what they did in 2008 and there ain't a damn thing the US or EU can do about it.. just as it was in 2002 when RU couldn't do a damn thing about it.

Get used to it folks.. RU is in Georgia to stay.  They did exactly what they said they would do and all the whining in the world isn't going to change that.

Want a new cold war? The choice is yours.

BC ...please forgive me for what i'm about to say.  Your quoted comments are absurd.  Are you really so out of touch you that you think nothing can be done to get Russia out of Georgia?  Do you not know that Putin has had as his top priority the rekindling of a cold war?  That choice was Putin's to make and he made a long time ago.  Sorry to hear the news travels so slow where you live.

[Ronnie]

We don't really know yet who has murdered whom. When two parties are fighting it is rare that one part in totally innocent. We just have to wait until the dust has settles and wait for some unbiased investigations

The Kremlin will not allow unbiased investigations.  You can take that to the bank.  Think Apartment house bombings, the murders of Politkovskaya, Klebnikov and Litvinenko.

[Ronnie]

As BC says it's sad! We are heading back to the cold war. And it's not only Russias fault, even if some here want to make it look like that!

Sad?  for whom?...not for the KGB boys in the Kremlin!  They miss the good old days of being considered superpower.  They would return to the old ways tomorrow if they thought they could get it done quickly.  Instead they are moving at hour-hand speed.

[diverboy70]

BC ...please forgive me for what i'm about to say.  Your quoted comments are absurd.  Are you really so out of touch you that you think nothing can be done to get Russia out of Georgia?  Do you not know that Putin has had as his top priority the rekindling of a cold war?  That choice was Putin's to make and he made a long time ago.  Sorry to hear the news travels so slow where you live.

So what is medvedevs role in this, I thought they changed President recently. So Putin wants to start the cold war again? Do you have any proof or references for that statement? What are you building this on, just your oppinion or have you any hard evidences for this?

[diverboy70]

Sad?  for whom?...not for the KGB boys in the Kremlin!  They miss the good old days of being considered superpower.  They would return to the old ways tomorrow if they thought they could get it done quickly.  Instead they are moving at hour-hand speed.

Ronnie

Im not going to discuss this with you anymore, since you can't keep it on a civil level anymore!

[Lit_1nce]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-109_Tomahawk#Launch_systems

If lanched off Russia's Pacific Coast, a Tomahawk would just reach Mongolia's Gobi desert. Is the Pentagon seriously planning to lay waste what is already a wasteland ?

Which is why objections to Georgia becoming part of NATO is silly.. The US already has incredible range with weaponry like this.. The real objection is that they wouldn't be able to advance into Georgia at will.. (as they have done). To look at NATO as a closer foothold (I imagine to get a better shot ??)  rather than as a preventative influence on aggressive neighbors ignores reality.

You can also bet, that the actions by Georgia would not have happened in the first place if they had become part of NATO.

[Ronnie]

Ronnie

I really don't know. I think Russia feels really threatened by NATO getting too close today. And it is just stupid of NATO to even concider a Georgian membership. Then the should change slogan "Partnership for war"

Diverboy...you're still not understanding something.  Should A country be denied membership in an alliance because it's located too close to Russia?  What if, for the sake of argument, Finland chose to join.  Would you be okay with letting Russia determine that for you?

[diverboy70]

Which is why objections to Georgia becoming part of NATO is silly.. The US already has incredible range with weaponry like this.. The real objection is that they wouldn't be able to advance into Georgia at will.. (as they have done). To look at NATO as a closer foothold (I imagine to get a better shot ??)  rather than as a preventative influence on aggressive neighbors ignores reality.

You can also bet, that the actions by Georgia would not have happened in the first place if they had become part of NATO.

I don't think it so much about the actual strike range. It is more of a psycological thing for Russia to get the enemy at the gate. Russia has allways been a proud nation and if Georgia would be a NATO member it would be a sign of weakness for Russia.

[Ronnie]

Ronnie

Im not going to discuss this with you anymore, since you can't keep it on a civil level anymore!

There's nothing uncivil in my debate with you.  You want to argue that NATO is wrong to "push" or "move" into Georgia.  I pointed out that the impetus is coming from the new applicants and I thought you agreed that is their perfect right to do so. 

If you can't debate anymore, fine but don't make up a false pretense for withdrawal.   

[Misha]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-109_Tomahawk#Launch_systems

If launched off Russia's Pacific Coast, a Tomahawk would just reach Mongolia's Gobi desert. Is the Pentagon seriously planning to lay waste what is already a wasteland ?

Here is an interesting article as to how the United States could, in theory, launch a first strike against Russia and hit targets much farther inland than Mongolia: http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20060301faessay85204/keir-a-lieber-daryl-g-press/the-rise-of-u-s-nuclear-primacy.html.

You would not use the Tomohawk, but rather a new generation Trident missile that has a range well over 7,000 kilometers, putting Moscow well within range: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/slbm/d-5.htm.

[diverboy70]

Diverboy...you're still not understanding something.  Should A country be denied membership in an alliance because it's located too close to Russia?  What if, for the sake of argument, Finland chose to join.  Would you be okay with letting Russia determine that for you?

As I said earlier I think it is a differnce between Finland and Georgia. But no i don't think Finland should belong to NATO. Finland has allways had a tensed relationship to Russia, we had some good presidents that managed to handle the SU, but we were really close to just be another satelite state!

Ronnie, I understand your reasoning, just tone it down a bit please! I don't agree with you ok, but I know what you are saying. I just try to look at the bigger picture. No one will be happy with a new cold war. It is time for NATO to back off from Russias borders, its very provocative for them. im not saying that Georgia should stop its cooperation with west. Just the military cooperation.

Russia are willing to begin political discussion with Georgia, and I think the only slolution in the region is just political and diplomatical, not a military sollution!

[Ronnie]

I don't think it so much about the actual strike range. It is more of a psycological thing for Russia to get the enemy at the gate. Russia has allways been a proud nation and if Georgia would be a NATO member it would be a sign of weakness for Russia.

Now you're talkin'.  As was said many decades ago about Russia..She sees nations as either vassals or enemies.  Georgia wanted to be neither but Russia's psyche has no room for any alternatives.

[diverboy70]

As I said earlier. This is a time for restraint! It is not a time for shouting and blaming, first lets get a stop to this stupid war. Nobody will gain from escalating this conflict! Not Russia and not the west!

[Jack]

  Finland has not been a part of Russia since 1917. Georgia was a part of the SU, it has since the fall of the SU been an area of conflicts.

"Georgia was part of the SU" ?   

Diverboy, you write as though Georgia was a "willing" part of the Soviet Union.
I think a little Georgian history might be helpful.



On October 25, 1917, the Bolshevik party staged a coup in Russia and established Soviet power.

Almost immediately, but unsuccessful, the Bolsheviks failed to provoke the population of Georgia to rebel.

Soviet Russia and Georgia signed a treaty on May 7, 1920, according to which Russia recognized the independence and sovereignty of the Georgian Democratic Republic.

Georgia grew stronger and stronger, all the time the Bolsheviks remained close to the border. 

February of 1921, the Bolshevik armies invaded Georgia. The forces were unequal and on February 25, 1921, units of the Red Army entered Tbilisi. In Moscow, Lenin received the congratulations of his commissars--"The red banner blows over Tbilisi."

The struggle for independence never stopped. This struggle assumed the form of a widespread national-liberation movement and brought victory to the freedom-loving, patriotic forces.  In 1990, after the break-up of the Soviet Union, multi-party elections were held and, on the 9th of April, Parliament declared the independence of Georgia.

In July 1992, Georgia became the 179th member of the United Nations.

[BC]

BC ...please forgive me for what i'm about to say.  Your quoted comments are absurd.  Are you really so out of touch you that you think nothing can be done to get Russia out of Georgia?  Do you not know that Putin has had as his top priority the rekindling of a cold war?  That choice was Putin's to make and he made a long time ago.  Sorry to hear the news travels so slow where you live.

Ronnie,

Apologies are not needed, blast away but I must admit I have a hard time keeping up.  Think quality and not quantity, as you do repeat yourself quite often.

Georgia is a US ally.. , one that the US does not have under control.. more or less a loose cannon.  This leaves two choices.. did the US know what was happening or were they 'surprised'.. will leave that up to you.

There was a response that was also a 'surprise'.. and over which they had very little options to control.

Do they want to send troops in? according to Gates, no.  Can they even assure the Georgian government backing to keep their ports and airfields open? Gates again says no..

Will RU support their citizens? They are doing it.. Did RU say Georgia's sovereignty be damned? Yes they did.

Add the two and figure it out.

US and other interested parties can only huff and puff.  Sure.. raise the ante.. but by how much.. enough to risk every bit of progress that has been achieved over the last 40 or so years and risk going back into the dark ages?

Yeah, life is slow down here but it does give us time to think and it seems that is exactly what you don't have.

Who was the first party to break a treaty formed during the cold war?  Don't obfuscate.. give some fact.

[diverboy70]

Jack

I just said Georgia was a part of the SU, where do you read that i said they were a willing part?

[Jack]

You write Georgia was part of the Soviet Union.  I think it would have been more accurate for you to have wrote Russia invaded and took over Georgia and Forced Georgia to be part of the Soviet Union.  That would have been more accurate don't you agree?

[diverboy70]

LOL yes I think you could say that about most of the parts of the SU, more or less, don't you think? The fact was that they were a part of the SU.

[Ranetka]

Jack

I just said Georgia was a part of the SU, where do you read that i said they were a willing part?

Moreover Georgia was a part of Russian Empire lonf time before the Soviet Union. Not sure but some 200 years?

[Misha]

Moreover Georgia was a part of Russian Empire lonf time before the Soviet Union. Not sure but some 200 years?

Maybe, but this would only confirm that Russia can only deal with other countries through an imperial prism.

[BC]

You write Georgia was part of the Soviet Union.  I think it would have been more accurate for you to have wrote Russia invaded and took over Georgia and Forced Georgia to be part of the Soviet Union.  That would have been more accurate don't you agree?

Commonwealth of Independent States
Georgia (1994 - 2008)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Independent_States

Ex-president: Georgia made mistake
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/13/europe/EU-Germany-Georgia-Shevardnadze.php