Russia is at it again!

[Ronnie]

I think people give too much credit to Putin. He exists only because organized crime allows him to be in charge. As long as Putin doesn't try to take back all that the Russian mafia took after the breakup of the Soviet Union, he will stay in charge and alive.  The only thing Putin took back was the energy sector, and that only succeeded because he put mafia members who were loyal to him in charge of Gazprom. Organized crime runs Russia. Big corporation runs the US. Really, not much of a difference.

No Wxman.  Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin is the undisputed capo di tutti capi.  Boss of all Bosses.

[Ronnie]

Someone earlier wondered if the Kremlin's claim that the Georgians killed 1,500 to 2,000 civilians might not be fictitious or overstated. 

Human Rights Watch, www.hrw.org sent representatives to Tskhinvali and recently filed their report about casualties there.  Here is a part of that report:

Casualty numbers in Tskhinvali 
 
A doctor at Tskhinvali Regional Hospital who was on duty from the afternoon of August 7 told Human Rights Watch that between August 6 to12 the hospital treated 273 wounded, both military and civilians. She said her hospital was the only clinic treating the wounded in Tskhinvali. The doctor said there were more military personnel than civilians among the wounded and added that all of the wounded were later transferred to the Russian Ministry of Emergencies mobile hospitals in South and North Ossetia. As of August 13, there were no wounded left in the Tskhinvali hospital. 
 
The doctor also said that 44 bodies had been brought to the hospital since the fighting began, of both military and civilians. The figure reflects only those killed in the city of Tskhinvali. But the doctor was adamant that the majority of people killed in the city had been brought to the hospital before being buried, because the city morgue was not functioning due to the lack of electricity in the city. 
 

[Ronnie]

Account from a doctor working in Tskhinvali..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561801.stm

[Misha]

And it keeps being piled higher. This according to a Russian intern who published an opinion piece in the Washington Post: "Within hours, Georgian troops destroyed Tskhinvali, a city of 100,000, and they killed more than 2,000 civilians." Somehow, the population of Tskhinvali ballooned to 100,000 which is surprising as there are only 30,000 or so South Ossetians, and somehow the Georgian forces destroyed this city in a few hours.  And, I have yet to see any real proof of 2,000 fatalities. The Russian allegations were nonetheless presented as fact in a piece where Olga Ivanova complains of the bias of the American newspapers 

[Ronnie]

Putin as Time Magazine's "Man of the Year"
Comments by a well-respected Frenchman were published in January.  Here's the English translation:

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0104ag.html

[Shadow]

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29082

Over 1700 Russian emergency workers are helping civilians recover from the bombardment of the South Ossetian capital.

The scale of devastation in Tskhinvali is enormous, but the focus remains on the rescue and recovery operations.

After visiting Tskhinvali, Russia’s Emergencies Minister Sergey Shoigu has estimated it will take at least two years to rebuild the city.

He said that every day 120 tonnes of essential provisions and building materials are being delivered to Tskhinvali. A working bakery has been set-up so that there is some fresh bread in the city.

At the moment Russia’s Emergencies Ministry staff are striving to restore destroyed power and water supplies as well as communications. They have partially succeeded.

They are also searching the debris to recover bodies trapped underneath the rubble.

The injured are being treated at mobile hospitals and a special group of psychologists are driving around the city trying to offer support.

“The key task now is to transfer all refugees from temporary camps in North Ossetia to stationary facilities. We should also have to set up a humanitarian centre in Tskhinvali to hand out aid, to pay compensation for the lost property. We need it so that people can live there in normal conditions, so that they can be provided with food and medical help,” Russia’s Emergencies Minister Sergey Shoigu said.

Many local people are suffering severe psychological traumas. Some have even lost their ability to speak after all they have been through – witnessing their houses having been bombed and relatives killed.

There is currently a shortage of coffins in the city, as well vehicles and sufficient petrol to transport them. That’s why many are having to bury their loved ones and neighbours in their own backyards.

[Shadow]

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/15/chance.south.ossetia.cnn

[Ronnie]

The Russian doctor said he could not confirm the claim of 2000 dead in Tskhinvali.  The numbers he did cite, concerning the wounded wouldn't indicate anything close to figure of 2000.  This report is consistent with the report of Human Rights Watch.

Now the Russian TV is saying that the bodies can't be counted because they've been buried in people's backyards. 

Did anyone notice the reports in July where the International Olympic Committee found Russia to be systematically cheating on urine tests?  I have always felt a degree of sympathy for people who are so deperate to show they aren't inferior that they must lie and cheat, even in sporting events.  It's sad.

[Lit_1nce]

Because of things like the drugs, and other cheating, as well as bad officiating, and my other pet peeve the professional athletes.. I just can't watch the Olympic athletic competitions anymore.. The opening ceremonies are pretty much all I have watched for the last few Olympics.

[BC]

There is still a lot unknown above and beyond body counts..

U.S. Diplomat, Close to Saakashvili,
Plays Key Role in Conflict

When Russian tanks rolled out of South Ossetia and into Georgia proper Monday, triggering fears of a full-scale invasion, a man began furiously shoving U.S. diplomat Matthew J. Bryza around the lobby of the Marriott Tbilisi, the capital's fanciest hotel.

"It's your fault too," shouted Georgy Khaindrava, a former Georgian minister for conflict resolution. "If you hadn't propped up Misha Magariya [Misha the strong], we wouldn't have tanks here now," he said, referring to Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili.

Also didn't know that Saakashvili was quelling protests with rubber bullets and tear gas and also shut down an opposition TV station..  So much for free press and freedom of speech in Georgia..

Mr. Bryza said Washington has been firm with Tbilisi. He said that for at least four months, he and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice as well as other U.S. diplomats had repeatedly delivered the same message to Mr. Saakashvili: that the Georgian leader should "avoid an unwinnable confrontation with Russia."

Makes a 'surprised US President' questionable.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121885135947146439.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

[wxman]

There is still a lot unknown above and beyond body counts..
Also didn't know that Saakashvili was quelling protests with rubber bullets and tear gas and also shut down an opposition TV station..  So much for free press and freedom of speech in Georgia..

Makes a 'surprised US President' questionable.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121885135947146439.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Let's not leave this out from the WSJ report showing that the US was not always happy with what  Saakashvili was doing.

"He noted that in November, when Mr. Saakashvili cracked down on opposition protesters using tear gas and rubber bullets, shutting down an opposition television station, he was the one who took a "very tough" message to the Georgian president.

"We'll support you as long as you are a democrat," Mr. Bryza says he told Mr. Saakashvili."

[wxman]

Let's see how Russia will react to this. Seems like Ukraine wants to push Russia's buttons. Probably not a good idea to be poking a hornets nest with a stick right now.

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/news/international/5921543/Ukraine-to-join-in-USled-missile-shield-in-Europe

[felix8787]

I really haven't been keeping track of what has been going one over there, but this morning I was talking to a friend from Samara and we talked about the situation, we both agree that we are opposed to the war and we both agree that this has to do with control, money and power...(assuming) but she sent me this link.

http://conf.7ya.ru/conf/confer-theme.aspx?cid=Foreign&tid=19847

Watch the youtube segment.

I really saddens me what is going on over there.

felix8787

[Ronnie]

The girl was not credible.  After saying the bombs were falling, she was asked directly about that.  She said, "I didn't see any..but before I say anymore."  She went on to parrot the Russian line about 2,000 people dead and Saakashvili the villain and thankyou to the Russians for helping us out. 

Then the mother goes into her speech and gets testy when they have to take a commercial break.  Afterwards, he gives her all the time she needed to make her speech.  Yet, my wife gets a call from a Russian friend who said that Shepard Smith wouldn't let them talk.

IMHO, the girl was visiting N. Ossetia and wasn't in SO at all.  Notice her body language as she repeats her prepared account.  Eyes darting from left to right.  Maybe FSB involvement?  Did somebody tap her on the shoulder before she boarded the flight from Moscow to the US?  Who knows?  Anything is possible in the war of disinformation.

This is sad indeed for the Russian people.

[Misha]

I really haven't been keeping track of what has been going one over there, but this morning I was talking to a friend from Samara and we talked about the situation, we both agree that we are opposed to the war and we both agree that this has to do with control, money and power...(assuming) but she sent me this link.

http://conf.7ya.ru/conf/confer-theme.aspx?cid=Foreign&tid=19847

Watch the youtube segment.

I really saddens me what is going on over there.

felix8787

Watched the segment. The girl is asked whether she saw any bombs falling when Georgia attacks. She says she did not see any and them immediately goes on to thank the Russian army for liberating them. Oh boy, she was well prepped. So, somehow, the city according to Russian reports, is leveled in a matter of hours by the the Georgians, yet somehow, a witness in the middle of it did no see any bombs falling.

[Misha]

The girl was not credible.

We posted at the same time, but I agree with you. At least when the "West" was working to bring those responsible to trial because of the people killed in the former Yugoslavia, they actually had evidence. There have been teams excavating mass burials and running DNA tests to identify the victims. They have been meticulous in their work and documenting the killings. Yet, somehow, we are supposed to believe 2000 killed with no evidence. It has become a mantra.

[felix8787]

I did notice that her eyes were darting back and forth when asked questions, as if she is trying to remember what it is that she was suppose to say.
These are crazy times and more then likely it isn't going to stop anytime soon (shaking head).

felix8787

[felix8787]

She also sent me these other links this morning, to what is going on over there.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//osradio.ru/news/genocid/11927.html&hl=en&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=windows-1251

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//www.rian.ru/osetia_review/20080815/150409836.html&hl=en&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=utf-8


felix8787

[Ronnie]

A footnote from History.....

The SS took twelve prisoners out of Buchenwald, drove them to the Polish border and forced them to take poison after putting on Polish uniforms. The corpses were shot. An SS Officer yelled in Polish into a radio that they had come to invade Germany, and then the SS fled.

On September 1, 1939, Hitler told the Nazi Reichstag that Poland had tried to invade Germany, and the Wehrmacht was returning fire since 5:45 AM.  Actually, in a carefully planned and highly mobile attack codenamed Fall Weiss (Case White) planned by Generalfeldmarschall Walther von Brauchitsch, German land, sea, and air forces were moving rapidly into Poland.

Poland’s army in 1939 was totally unprepared for the new warfare it found itself in.  Poland, like many armies, had large cavalry forces.  What modern aircraft the Polish Air Force had were caught on the ground.

[wxman]

Russia now using forced labor.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/16/europe/EU-Georgia-Forced-Laborers.php

[Misha]

The scale of devastation in Tskhinvali is enormous, but the focus remains on the rescue and recovery operations.

The soldiers seem to be able to find some time to loot homes and businesses in Georgian territory  :evil:

[I/O]

Watched the segment. The girl is asked whether she saw any bombs falling when Georgia attacks. She says she did not see any and them immediately goes on to thank the Russian army for liberating them. Oh boy, she was well prepped. So, somehow, the city according to Russian reports, is leveled in a matter of hours by the the Georgians, yet somehow, a witness in the middle of it did no see any bombs falling.

A couple of speculative observations.

They both said thankyou for the "Welcome Home", yet "my house is burned" and check mum's accent..............about as SO as I am, not to mention the family name ending in O. SO names seldom end in O unless they married Russians  ~Shrug~. One minor thing I find rather questionable was the implication that a 12 y/o was there without her parents on holiday. Not many parents, particularly protective Slavs send their kids on distant holidays alone, especially to SO which has been quite tense for quite some time. Either she travelled to and from with mum or she wasn't there at all. I am much more inclined to assume the latter. To get in and out of there from USA, this kid has travelled several airports and other difficult routes alone at 12 y/o? Possible but highly doubtful. Would be very interesting to check her recent passport stamps, if in fact she has one and is not simply travelling on mums passport. I would be very confident the journo did NOT do that.

What it does demonstrate to me is this, whether officially sponsored or maverick effort, Russia and some Russians have been badly wounded in the propaganda war and I suspect this has taken many by a deal of surprise. A belated effort to counter the PG losses suggests to me image is far more important to Russia than Moscow would care to have the world believe. Another piece of PG that seems to be ramping up is the "American training and arming" of the Georgians and yet when we see a piece of Georgian equipment destroyed in the fighting it is Russian made equipment.

But get this one, some humour in it all. I receive so called damming reports from Russia regarding "Black Guys" being found fighting along side Georgian troops which apparently clearly demonstrates the American involvement and of course how America hates Russia, but then we switch on the TV 5 minutes later and whilst Aussie is giving Auntie Rus a thrashing (The hide of our little country to do such a thing)  in the Olympic basketball (Cause for great fun in our home), the Ru coach does a substitution and guess who comes on the Russian team...................a Black Guy. Shades of the Berlin Olympics almost when you think about it. Needless to say the phone out of here ran hot for a few minutes and the convo was quite heated. It was just too funny. I feel for Mrs in this because she can see both sides and tries to take a balanced view but at the end of the day, she is Russian and blood is thicker than water so to say.

I/O

[Shadow]

I/O the real funny thing about the black guy in the Russian team is how much it has stirred.
At the same time you should watch the names of the US gymnastics team who won gold, and those in a number of other sports.
And it is not limited to Russia or the US. The Dutch runners on the 10km for women had very Kenian names and looks.
The Georgian beach volleybal players came from Brazil.
Olympic sports are already not limited to countries. Its a match between doctors on who can make the best doping.

[I/O]

I/O the real funny thing about the black guy in the Russian team is how much it has stirred.
At the same time you should watch the names of the US gymnastics team who won gold, and those in a number of other sports.
And it is not limited to Russia or the US. The Dutch runners on the 10km for women had very Kenian names and looks.
The Georgian beach volleybal players came from Brazil.
Olympic sports are already not limited to countries. Its a match between doctors on who can make the best doping.

Shadow: I don't want to get into the doping thing but it is interesting to me to watch the Aussie cyclists this time around. Maybe for the first time they are clean? Hello, there seems to be a distinct absence of medals. ~Shrug~.

What about the Silver medal this evening in the ladies vaulting............Uzbek originally, competed for USSR, then CIS and now Germany and none of that is important, what is important, is she is 33 years old and won a silver medal among the 16 Y/O's.

The Australian womens basketball captain plays professionally in Moscow, although she is very much Australian. Alexander Popov,the brilliant Russian swimmer, they never came better than him, competed for Russia but lived in Australia. If there is something I love about the Olympics, it is all of that and more. One of the great pity's of the Russian action in Georgia, justified or not, we have moved back 20 years with some of the social gains which have been made across borders. A great pity for everyone and not least of all Russians.

Anyway, much of that is perhaps subject matter for other threads.

I/O   

[BC]

Somewhat relevant to this thread

Coming Soon: A Post-American World

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/17/sunday/main4356248.shtml