Russia is at it again!

[wxman]

 Regarding politicians how many here are really in worse financial shape than they were 4 years ago.  USA economy has grown a lot in 4 years so if your doing worse you need to re think about your spending / investing strategy.  

I would agree with you there. The problem with many in the US is that they have lived off of credit for the last 10 years. Now the piper is calling. It has become an instant gratification society. No longer do young couples want a starter home. Nope they want the mansion right from the start. No longer does the younger generation want a used car as their first car, nope they want a new car. So what do they do, they run out and get themselves in massive debt. Of course for the last 10 years the economy was be driven by these debt happy people. The only ones coming out of this smelling good, are the ones who took financial responsibility and did not play that game. Today the savings rate is less than zero, while back in the 70s when the economy was really in the tank, the savings rate was still a strong 10%. The American love of credit is going to turn into a nightmare. I just hope this nightmare doesn't come and bite us, the ones who didn't play that credit game.

[Ranetka]

Seems poor Poland and Ukraine can't shake be "owned" by another country and apparently they are incapable of making their own decisions, thus they are in need of an "owner"

Well, they pretty much NEVER have been independent countries belonging in parts to Russian Impire or Austro-Hungarian Impire. Methinks there are good geo-political reasons for that apart form Putin's evil thoughts.

P.S. I think Ukrain should give Crimea to Russia and Carpats area (may be Karpats, not sure) back to Poland or Austria, whoever..Just for the sake of historical justice hehe.

[Ronnie]

I couldn't even begin to predict. I don't see Romney as sellable to the American public. Gov of one of the most liberal states and an LDS. I expect he'll lean toward Leiberman. McCain proved last election as he was courted by Kerry that he is a bit of maverick as far as party loyalty.

FWIW I never though Obama had a snowballs chance in hell of getting the Democratic nomination either.


Our political future I just don't feel so good about.

As to Romney, you're right that 30% of Americans have candidly said they won't vote for a Mormon (LDS).  But he is being touted by all the conservative talking heads and the Republican establishment.  Don't forget Lieberman is Jewish and I think the same bigotry that would affect Romney would affect him but the main reason is McCain now has to stop poking his party in the eye if he wants their support.

My prediction of Romney comes from a hint dropped by McCain himself when pastor Rick Warren asked the candidates to name three wise people he would listen to.  One of the three McCain mentioned was Meg Whitman.  Meg was an ardent supporter of Romney whose only purpose in joining the McCain campaign is to get Romney on the ticket.

[Jack]

P.S. I think Ukrain should give Crimea to Russia and Carpats area (may be Karpats, not sure) back to Poland or Austria, whoever..Just for the sake of historical justice hehe.

Why stop there?   For the sake of historical justice why not give Moscow back to Ukraine?


When I was in Moscow a few years ago, I think it was in late June, I was reading the Moscow Times and saw where the Duma was saying things like "We want back Crimea", "We gave Russian blood to get Crimea" (I think Russia took Crimea from the Ottoman Turks during the time of Katherine the Great) and "Khrushchev had no rights to give Crimea to Ukraine".

The next week I was back in Kiev and I was reading the Kiev Post. Members of the Ukraine Parliament had heard of what the Russian politicians were saying and that we should go back in history to the time where Crimea once belonged to Russia.  So the comment coming out of the Ukraine Parliament that was published in the Post was "Ok Russia, you want to go back in history. Then we want Moscow back".   That was the end of that political dialogue.

[Ranetka]

Why stop there?   For the sake of historical justice why not give Moscow back to Ukraine?


When I was in Moscow a few years ago, I think it was in late June, I was reading the Moscow Times and saw where the Duma was saying things like "We want back Crimea", "We gave Russian blood to get Crimea" (I think Russia took Crimea from the Ottoman Turks during the time of Katherine the Great) and "Khrushchev had no rights to give Crimea to Ukraine".

The next week I was back in Kiev and I was reading the Kiev Post. Members of the Ukraine Parliament had heard of what the Russian politicians were saying and that we should go back in history to the time where Crimea once belonged to Russia.  So the comment coming out of the Ukraine Parliament that was published in the Post was "Ok Russia, you want to go back in history. Then we want Moscow back".   That was the end of that political dialogue.

Yes you right Jack. Demands like this are insane. The map of the world is changing constantly and we can not go back to where it was, there is no "justice" in history. That is why I think if Ossetians what to leave Georgia they have a right to do so. And if people of Eastern Ukraine want to have close relations with Russia it should be done. Some people here say things like "Russia use its influence with native Russians living in other countries" like it is a bad thing. It is not, these people have a right to express their wishes and be heard. I think what some people might not realise is that Russains living in Ukraine (for example) they have always lived there. Shortsited polititians do not want to remember that we are brothers, we are Slavs, can understand each others language, we have a common history and economical relations. I only went to Kiev this year, no big difference to any Russian city apart from street signs in Ukrainian or in both languages.

It all happened because in 1992 three people each wanted his own kingdom. People are suffering as a result.

[wxman]

Yes you right Jack. Demands like this are insane. The map of the world is changing constantly and we can not go back to where it was, there is no "justice" in history. That is why I think if Ossetians what to leave Georgia they have a right to do so. And if people of Eastern Ukraine want to have close relations with Russia it should be done. Some people here say things like "Russia use its influence with native Russians living in other countries" like it is a bad thing. It is not, these people have a right to express their wishes and be heard. I think what some people might not realise is that Russains living in Ukraine (for example) they have always lived there. Shortsited polititians do not want to remember that we are brothers, we are Slavs, can understand each others language, we have a common history and economical relations. I only went to Kiev this year, no big difference to any Russian city apart from street signs in Ukrainian or in both languages.

It all happened because in 1992 three people each wanted his own kingdom. People are suffering as a result.

It may seem logical to let the people choose their allegiances, but it's not always that simple. For example in eastern Ukraine, there are a lot of citizens of Russian descent, as there are plenty with Ukrainian descent. How does one handle the separation? Does Ukraine concede to the wishes of those who want to be part of Russia, while abandoning those who wish to remain in Ukraine? Who pays for the relocation of those who wish to remain in Ukraine? Is is right for those who wish to be part of Ukraine to sacrifice all they have to leave the east and start over again? This was never a problem until a pro west leader took office. On December 1, 1991, over 90% voted for the Act of Independence, and that includes the people of Russian descent. They had pro Russian leaders for years, and the people didn't seem to mind that they were not part of Russia. If this were to be allowed, and say 20 years from now, the people of the east say, oops, that was a mistake, do we go through this whole process again? Do we hold referendums around the world every 10 years to decide what countries people wish to live in? Do we ignore the wishes of the majority, to placate the wishes of the minority? One simple statement holds true...The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence.

[Ranetka]

It may seem logical to let the people choose their allegiances, but it's not always that simple. For example in eastern Ukraine, there are a lot of citizens of Russian descent, as there are plenty with Ukrainian descent. How does one handle the separation? Does Ukraine concede to the wishes of those who want to be part of Russia, while abandoning those who wish to remain in Ukraine? Who pays for the relocation of those who wish to remain in Ukraine? Is is right for those who wish to be part of Ukraine to sacrifice all they have to leave the east and start over again? This was never a problem until a pro west leader took office. The people overwhelmingly voted for independence, and that includes the people of Russian descent. They had pro Russian leaders for years, and the people didn't seem to mind that they were not part of Russia. If this were to be allowed, and say 20 years from now, the people of the east say, oops, that was a mistake, do we go through this whole process again? One simple statement holds true...The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence.

Referendums are the answer to if people want an independance or not.
Relocation costs ...there always is not going to be a perfect solution I am affraid. I know of people relocated from Kazachstan to Russia. things in Kazachstan were fairly bad at the moment, I undersand. There apartments cost nothing at the time and yes, these people have lost a lot as a result. I know of them because son lived in the same student hostel as I did. They could only buy a room in a communal flat having sold 3 -rooms apartment in Kazachstan. My mates parents were ex-military living in Estonia.  they (her as well) could have never had Estonian sitizenship, could never had a job with goverment etc, not sure if her mother could carry on working as a teacher. Their relocation was paid by Russian State, but they end up in cr*p location, very cheap property. Also her father lost his job due to estonian laws, tough times, so to say. Politics always hurt common people and make politians rich.

[wxman]

Referendums are the answer to if people want an independance or not.
Relocation costs ...there always is not going to be a perfect solution I am affraid. I know of people relocated from Kazachstan to Russia. things in Kazachstan were fairly bad at the moment, I undersand. There apartments cost nothing at the time and yes, these people have lost a lot as a result. I know of them because son lived in the same student hostel as I did. They could only buy a room in a communal flat having sold 3 -rooms apartment in Kazachstan. My mates parents were ex-military living in Estonia.  they (her as well) could have never had Estonian sitizenship, could never had a job with goverment etc, not sure if her mother could carry on working as a teacher. Their relocation was paid by Russian State, but they end up in cr*p location, very cheap property. Also her father lost his job due to estonian laws, tough times, so to say. Politics always hurt common people and make politians rich.

The real answer is not referendums, but people learning to get along with each other. The more you seperate, the more you divide. Nationalism is what is destroying this world. It creates bigotry, hatred, violence and death. People want the easy way out. They do not want to try to get along with their neighbors anymore.

[Ranetka]

The real answer is not referendums, but people learning to get along with each other. The more you seperate, the more you divide. Nationalism is what is destroying this world. It creates bigotry, hatred, violence and death. People want the easy way out. They do not want to try to get along with their neighbors anymore.

You have a valid point here. But you support breakdown of the Soviet Union, don't you? How does it go with what you just posted?

Part of the reason lots of FSU countries in such a bad state financially is that old economical connections were broken down.

[wxman]

You have a valid point here. But you support breakdown of the Soviet Union, don't you? How does it go with what you just posted?

Part of the reason lots of FSU countries in such a bad state financially is that old economical connections were broken down.

I can definately understand your point of view. You have a lot of valid arguments. I was neither for or against the breakup of the Soviet Union. I was just pointing out what happened. We can't change the past. I don't know the answers and don't know which is better in the long run. One could easily look at the results of the breakup of the Soviet Union, and the chaos that followed, and say that Eastern Europe is more in disarray than it has ever been in recent history. Perhaps it's just best to let the people of those countries decide, and the rest of the world should not interfere. The sad part is once other more powerful countries smell that there may be independence pushes in other countries, they have to try and get their hands on a piece of the cake or even worse, adding fuel to the fire which eventually create civil wars. 

[Ronnie]

You have a valid point here. But you support breakdown of the Soviet Union, don't you? How does it go with what you just posted?

Part of the reason lots of FSU countries in such a bad state financially is that old economical connections were broken down.

One could argue the USSR was never a country..even the name implies such.  But it could have been were it not for the methods used by the communist party to force the issue.  It is human nature for people and nations to resist domination and removal of freedom from their lives.

[steviej]

oops ...

[Makkin]

  Maybe the world court can fix all things and bring charges?..lol


   I suppose if found guilty then all the Russians would have to do is "veto"..lol

 
   Seriously though it's not gonna be anytime soon when hostilities cease and people think with clear heads. Maybe 2012 will be the spark or maybe not?

Makkin
 

[steviej]

Now am I certain that if we leave in 2010, that Iraq won't collapse? No, in fact it could turn into a civil war. But I give credit to David Petraeus for seeing what it really was. No longer a war, but bringing back the law of the land. He has been so successful that Obama will look like he is keeping his promise to pull out US troops by 2010 if he is elected. It will have nothing to do with him, but with the great vision of General Petraeus.

As the wise man said, “We’ll see … we’ll see .. “ In general, I’m not in favor of making heroes out of people solving unnecessary problems. Wxman, you do know that it was all a lie to start the Iraq war, right?

Well, if Europe had taken a much stronger line in 1936 when Germany reoccupied the demilitarized zone, WWII may never have occurred. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but it is often better to deal with problems early than letting them fester.

Once Hitler got control of Germany, I think a showdown with Russia was inevitable. But we could have, and should have, stayed completely out of it. I doubt that getting stalled in the West (by the way, to re-attach the territories lost in Versaille) would have changed Hitler’s policies in the East. And remember a little place called … Poland  ?? ??

You're right of course Deccie,  But there's more to those words of yours "worked out".  There a book out talking about how it happened that the tribal leaders, particularly in the Sunni Provinces, changed sides.  They looked at the two sets of foreigners..Al Qaeda and the Americans.  At first they thought the Americans would stay for while then leave, so they sided with Al Qaeda. 

But they saw that the Americans were not leaving and kept coming ever stonger.  The tribal leaders then decided the Americans were what the book calls "the strongest tribe" and saw it to be in their own best interests to join them.  Even the Shia leaders like Al Sadr decided the Americans were the stronger force.

Isn’t it great that we can send our American sons and daughters to their death over there to be embraced as part of the “stronger tribe” … I can’t believe anyone can think about things this way, but a lot of Americans do.

Personally I would rather not see videos like that on RWD.

Watching people die even if those people are "the enemy" is not my idea of entertainment.

They are not the enemy either. They just got in the way of a USA neo-con strategy to start a war and attack potential enemies of Israel. And, you all know there wasn’t any Al Qaeda in Iraq in 2003, right? It wasn’t until we destroyed Saddam, who was opposed to Al Qaeda, that they were able to being infiltration.

Today, a new Gallup poll of likely voters in the U.S. has McCain surging ahead of Obama by 6 points.  Last month McCain trailed Obama about at least as many.

How much of this change in mood of the American electorate is because of the Russia/Georgia conflict and how much is just based on the electorate getting to know the candidates better?
 

There’s no doubt that the Republicans, the neo-cons, and the current administration are doing everything they can to create and keep a tense situation going with Russia until the election if they can. It is on purpose. The whole thing. It is known as the “October surprise”. I think I mentioned that before, that the current administration wants to create a “security crisis” to increase their chances of retaining control. It may work. Ronnie wouldn’t believe that. He thinks they are heroes responding to the dangerous bear and fighting for freedom. They wouldn’t manipulate world politics like that would they?

Too early for predictions.. I'll wait until the debates.

The failure of the current administration in our relations with Russia (with our Russian expert Secretary of State) gives you reasoning to continue it ?

Exactly, see above. It increases their chances.

Stupid quote of the day from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice:

 "It's 2008 and the United States has a ... firm treaty guarantee to defend Poland's territory as if it was the territory of the United States. So it's probably not wise to throw these threats around."
 

Damn, I hate being right all the time. Didn’t I tell you Poland? Doesn’t anyone remember anything? We’re threatening war again over Poland? This insanity is just too much. We are totally lacking in wisdom, something our Founding Fathers possessed in abundance.

It may seem logical to let the people choose their allegiances, but it's not always that simple. For example in eastern Ukraine, there are a lot of citizens of Russian descent, as there are plenty with Ukrainian descent. How does one handle the separation? Does Ukraine concede to the wishes of those who want to be part of Russia, while abandoning those who wish to remain in Ukraine? Who pays for the relocation of those who wish to remain in Ukraine? Is is right for those who wish to be part of Ukraine to sacrifice all they have to leave the east and start over again?

It will be interesting to see the US reaction when California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas announce their plebiscite proclaiming their desire to be independent of the US, leading to their rejoining Mexico. And we in the US will be cheering and helping all these “freedom fighters”, right? This will happen starting in about 20 years.

[wxman]

As the wise man said, “We’ll see … we’ll see .. “ In general, I’m not in favor of making heroes out of people solving unnecessary problems. Wxman, you do know that it was all a lie to start the Iraq war, right?

Just because one has great vision, does not a hero make. Of course I knew the war in Iraq was a farce or at least the reasons were a facade.

It will be interesting to see the US reaction when California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas announce their plebiscite proclaiming their desire to be independent of the US, leading to their rejoining Mexico. And we in the US will be cheering and helping all these “freedom fighters”, right? This will happen starting in about 20 years.

Texas in fact can leave the union anytime it wishes. It does not need a 2/3 majority of states voting to allow it to leave the union. It's the only state that does not need approval.

[steviej]

Texas in fact can leave the union anytime it wishes. It does not need a 2/3 majority of states voting to allow it to leave the union. It's the only state that does not need approval.

Didn't know that .. interesting. I don't remember which states are expected to flip over demographically first, but now its inevitable. There are very active Hispanic political groups, called in general "La Reconquistas" or something like that. That is their political agenda - separation from US.

First job of a  military is to defend our nation's borders. The army should be on the Southern border, with orders to "shoot to stun" anyone trying to enter illegally. That's defending our nation and our citizens. Instead, we are going to lose a significant amount of our territory in 20-80 year timeframe. But why worry about that? Our army is now part of a "strong tribe" half way around the world in a Middle East desert, isn't that great??

[msmoby_ru]

Now the hysteria seems to be dying down....

We are getting more realistic figures of casualties - including Russian one's ..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572635.stm

So, what was all this talk of "genocide"... especially from the Russian media?

ONE death was too many, of course.

[wxman]

Didn't know that .. interesting. I don't remember which states are expected to flip over demographically first, but now its inevitable. There are very active Hispanic political groups, called in general "La Reconquistas" or something like that. That is their political agenda - separation from US.

First job of a  military is to defend our nation's borders. The army should be on the Southern border, with orders to "shoot to stun" anyone trying to enter illegally. That's defending our nation and our citizens. Instead, we are going to lose a significant amount of our territory in 20-80 year timeframe. But why worry about that? Our army is now part of a "strong tribe" half way around the world in a Middle East desert, isn't that great??

I dug deeper into the Texas ability to leave the union. They had that right prior to the civil war. After the war thet were allowed back into the Union with the following conditions of a presidential proclamation of 1866. It still seems vague about Texas based on the last paragraph.

And did further declare in the same proclamation that it is the manifest determination of the American people that no State, of its own will, has a right or power to go out of or separate itself from, or be separated from the American Union; and that, therefore, each State ought to remain and constitute an integral part of the United States;

And did further declare in the last-mentioned proclamation, that the several aforementioned States, excepting Texas, had, in the manner aforesaid, given satisfactory evidence that they acquiesce in this sovereign and important resolution of national unity;



My favorite part. Seems like if anyone tries it again, they can be devastated!

And whereas,
the President of the United States in the same proclamation did further declare that it is believed to be a fundamental principle of government that the people who have revolted, and who have been overcome and subdued, must either be dealt with so as to induce them voluntarily to become friends, or else they must be held by absolute military power, or devastated, so as to prevent them from ever again doing harm as enemies, which last-named policy is abhorrent to humanity and to freedom;



http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/secession/20aug1866.html

[OlgaH]

So, what was all this talk of "genocide"... especially from the Russian media?

Officials in South Ossetia have given a figure for the number of people killed during Georgia's failed military offensive to win control of the region. Authorities in the capital Tskhinvali say 1,492 Ossetians lost their lives in the conflict.

According to Anatoly Nogovitsyn, Deputy Chief of Staff at the Russian Defence Ministry, who was speaking at a news conference on Wednesday, 64  Russian soldiers were killed in action and 323 were wounded.

To watch the full news conference click here. http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29271

[Ronnie]

This Opinion Column in The Moscow Times by Lilia Shevtsova is very insightful IMHO.  If you don't want to read the entire column, at least check out the last sentence.  It confirms what I've been hinting at here.

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1016/42/369860.htm

[wxman]

Even far more frightening. Perhaps the reason for missile defense in eastern Europe. Seems Russia outnumbers the US is tactical (battlefield) nuclear weapons 5000 to 500.

Also from that article
"As recently as July, the newspaper Izvestia floated the idea that Moscow would station nuclear weapons in Cuba if the U.S. went ahead with the deployment of an antiballistic missile radar in the Czech Republic and interceptors in Poland. Col. Gen. Nikolai Solovtsov, chief of Russia's strategic missile command, has openly spoken about aiming nuclear-tipped missiles at those two countries. Vladimir Putin has warned Ukraine that if it were to join NATO, "Russia will have to point its warheads at Ukrainian territory." Not long before that, Mr. Putin cheerfully described a series of ballistic-missile flight tests as "pleasant and spectacular holiday fireworks.""



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121928439171059051.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

[Ronnie]

Officials in South Ossetia have given a figure for the number of people killed during Georgia's failed military offensive to win control of the region. Authorities in the capital Tskhinvali say 1,492 Ossetians lost their lives in the conflict.

According to Anatoly Nogovitsyn, Deputy Chief of Staff at the Russian Defence Ministry, who was speaking at a news conference on Wednesday, 64  Russian soldiers were killed in action and 323 were wounded.

To watch the full news conference click here. http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29271

And then the 1,492 were revived except for 133.

Russian prosecutors have announced they are opening criminal cases into the deaths of 133 civilians who they say were killed by Georgian forces.

Initially, however, Russia suggested more than 1,500 people had died in the conflict.

Last week, Georgia filed a lawsuit against Russia at the International Court of Justice, based at The Hague, alleging the country had attempted to ethnically cleanse Georgians from the breakaway regions.

[Ranetka]

Even far more frightening. Perhaps the reason for missile defense in eastern Europe. Seems Russia outnumbers the US is tactical (battlefield) nuclear weapons 5000 to 500.

Also from that article
"As recently as July, the newspaper Izvestia floated the idea that Moscow would station nuclear weapons in Cuba if the U.S. went ahead with the deployment of an antiballistic missile radar in the Czech Republic and interceptors in Poland. Col. Gen. Nikolai Solovtsov, chief of Russia's strategic missile command, has openly spoken about aiming nuclear-tipped missiles at those two countries. Vladimir Putin has warned Ukraine that if it were to join NATO, "Russia will have to point its warheads at Ukrainian territory." Not long before that, Mr. Putin cheerfully described a series of ballistic-missile flight tests as "pleasant and spectacular holiday fireworks.""



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121928439171059051.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

that's called tit for tat.

[wxman]

that's called tit for tat.

That's a major tit, for a small tat!  Putting anti missile missles in Poland is the tat. Over responding by putting NUCLEAR weapons in Cuba would be more than a tat, it would be a major escalation.  A tit for a tat would to have put anti missle technology in Cuba, not nuclear weapons. Of course it was just a newspaper article, and neither Russia or the US would want to place nuclear weapons in unstable countries, where they could be used against them. Russia threatening Poland and Ukraine by saying they will have to point nuclear weapons at them is a joke. Both countries already know that those weapons have been pointed at them for years. It was a threat to scare the people, but has no effect on the political leaders who knew that was the case for years. 

[Ronnie]

Ranetka,

If Russia or anybody wants to put ten missiles in Cuba identical to those going into Poland, they would get no resistance from me.  What seems to be getting purposely overlooked is that anti-ballistic missile carry no payload.  they are nothing more that self-propelled flying telephone poles.  The are designed to collide not explode.  As I said before they only damage they could do to Russia would be if they fell on a dacha somewhere they might destroy the kitchen.

Keep your thoughts coming Ranetka... They are interesting to read.