Why do Russian women prefer Western men?

[Misha]

The present crisis is considered to hit USA much worse than Russia

That is what Russian propaganda television says, but I can provide a number of Russian analysts who would say otherwise.

[Fashionista]

That is what Russian propaganda television says, but I can provide a number of Russian analysts who would say otherwise.

Are they married?

[Misha]

Are they married?

I am not sure what difference that it makes, but the Russian economist that I was chatting with this weekend was happily married.

[ECOCKS]

Whew boy! Did someone hit a nerve or what?

I agree things are much worse in the FSU than in the US - PARTICULARLY AT THE PRACTICAL INDIVIDUAL LEVEL. If 2 million are reported as unemployed in Russia, my expectation is that the actual number is far higher. The numbers in Ukraine are not trusted either. That doesn't count the MILLIONS of people who have had their paychecks delayed, experienced mandatory vacations and been informed their pay has been cut by as much as 50%. Banks are rationing withdrawals and struggling to stave off runs which will bring the economy from a state of struggling to a full-blown catastroph' if they take hold. Government is trying to rattle their decayed sabers and slipping back into a repressionist and militaristic mentality that the country can ill afford at a time when the emphasis should be bread and jobs while getting an infrastructure in place which can stand the coming trials of the next few decades.

As for the societal level, I see the SWAG percentage of less than 1/10 of 1% as being a fair estimate based upon the reality of living in the FSU. The younger generation is content to date within their group and even the ones who have spent considerable time in the US lack any motivation to date westerners. The next two older generations have experienced a decade and a half of the peaking alcoholism, economic failure, political corruption and general destruction of their society which has left this small percentage shaken to the core that the old system was unable to withstand the reality of the world today. The vast majority are still dating FSUM, trying to figure out the work situation, have their babies and hope for a stable home. Forget account executives, day traders, bankers and such, remember the thousands of electricians, miners, foundry workers and government functionaries who are married and existing in their world today.

Things are bad there but generally the women accept that these are the men they have to work with and develop their lives.

[groovlstk]

Groov:

That is one statement, that is so loaded with options.  Was it due to your influence and answered quickly?  Has she been watching a whole lot of CSI special and taking very good notes?  Just likes the FSU men better?  Has given up on men altogether? 

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8783.msg163168#msg163168

[Diplomacy]

Mishenka:

I would not be laughing at Chivo.  Paying rent, is not the norm.  Living with parents and grandparents is closer to the norm.

They do not pay health insurance every month.  Their utility bills are subsidized and closer to 10%.  Most do not have cars, a lot that do.  Paid cash for them. 

You simply can not take the average income, then apply it to America. 

If you start taking a serious look at disposable income.  It is a different picture, and the lack of understanding is an issue all of itself.

The Russian people are not going into deficit spending like you, they are closer in spending habits to our depression era families were.

Rest:

 Do not spend a whole lot of time, trying to place ourselves on a pedestal at the expense of others.  It does not look good, and really sends a bad message to the people from other Countries.

Here is my breakdown

Yes, the FSUW are more accepting of a larger age gap.  That being said, the closer the better still. 

You are best served, taking the time to be a great person, then find a great woman.  Treat her as you would treat yourself.  Take the time to understand, why they say what they do.  What makes them happy and mad. 

Your biggest obstacles and assets are the pride and stubborn factor.  You have a strong woman on your hands, and has most likely endured more than most of us would want to know. 

Keep away from areas of frustration, this is not a race.  One small goal at a time, then instill pride for achieving the goal.  Focus on the improvement, and betterment of areas of insecurity.  English, that is the big one.  Do not be a teacher, and I can not tell you enough that you should learn Russian.

There is no reason to speculate what someone is going through.  Allow yourself the frustration and daunting task of understanding another language.  Then imagine, having to live in a world that only the language you are learning is spoken.

Many of the women that come her are very intelligent and well educated.  They are used to being able to discuss and theorize with others at a high level.  When you can not communicate even the most basic concepts, it is not a good feeling.  Especially, given the fact that you know you are smart.

Find a way to build a career for them, and not allow the frustration of working a job that they are overqualified for.  Do everything you can to put them in a position to succeed. 

Realize that the relationship dynamics are much different.  It is your job to work together and make a we. 

Romance-  Buying flowers and gifts on holidays are Jacks to open men.  Just that, nothing more.  Open the doors for them, and read up on chivalry.  I am sorry, it is being polite and loving.  Anyone that feels it is demeaning to women, well they have bigger problems.

Cards, emails, texts and telling her many times every day how much she means to you.  DO NOT FOOL YOURSELF INTO SAYING SHE KNOWS!  Remind her in many ways, and have fun doing it.

A wife is not a stock, you do not give a certain amount and expect a greater return than you gave.  Love, without expecting anything in return.  Then when she does do something, it is not just the equalizer for what you did.


   

[Misha]

Their utility bills are subsidized and closer to 10%. 

They were subsidized in the past, but the state has been increasing what Russians have to pay significantly these past few years and utilities are supposed to go up by 20-25% this year IIRC.

Most do not have cars, a lot that do.  Paid cash for them. 

Was true, but many/most Russians who bought cars in the last 3 years bought their cars on credit.

The Russian people are not going into deficit spending like you, they are closer in spending habits to our depression era families were.

I recommend this article in The Moscow Times: Frantic Debtors Turn to Anti-Debt Collectors (http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/600/42/375333.htm). According to this article: "Individuals owed 4 trillion rubles ($114 billion) as of October, according to the latest data posted on the Central Bank's web site." Many families owe more than they can pay and are being hassled by debt collectors.

Also, Russian businesses owe somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 billion. Even if families are not in debt, they will be hurt if the company that employed them goes under because of debt.

[ECOCKS]

Many more have/had bought not only cars, but also RE on credit these last two years as well as doing short-term credit for appliances and the like.  The magnitude and scope of the credit/debt problem is still emerging in the FSU.  The banks cannot figure out how to repossess or what to do with the item/property when/if they do get it.

As for utilities, this is a pittance compared to the amounts paid in the west.

Those with cars rarely have insurance, still an emerging market.  Car maintenance is also an elusive concept as they discover shade-tree mechanics cannot maintain many of the newer cars.

[Misha]

As for utilities, this is a pittance compared to the amounts paid in the west.

Tell that to the pensioner who gets 4,000 rubles a month or the newly unemployed who might only get 1,000 or 2,000 rubles as unemployment benefits. I would have to look up the stats, but the reality is that the majority of Russians before the crisis were spending most if not all their income on food and utilities, and inflation was highest on basic food products. It is a bit of a myth to believe that most or even a majority of Russians have large amounts of disposable cash after they pay for the basic necessities, and the much ballyhooed Russian "middle class" that did have disposable income is being hit the hardest by the crisis.

[ECOCKS]

I don't think any of us are dating pensioners. Some are probably dating unemployed women and many are probably dating ones who have had forced vacations, deferred paychecks and double-digit percentage paycuts. However, these factors are relatively new to the environment and this question has been posed repeatedly for the last 15+ years.

Utilities are subsidized by the state and, despite the recent increases, remain well below the "real" cost of their usage. The vast majority of the FSU are living in their paid for homes/flats which has had an enormous effect on disposable income. IN many ways you could argue that the economic crisis has saved a sizable percentage of the population which would have been drowning in debt after another 3-4 years of merciless consumer marketing touting easy credit, 0% interest and portraying the "keeping up with the Joneses" lifestyle. Those acquiring cars rarely have insurance and automotive maintenance is something which is just barely beginning to be understood here. Tires are badly worn, suspensions are shot, shock absorbers are blown, washer blades aresometimes nonexistent and I don't want to think about the average time between oil and filter changes over here. For those without cars the effects of incredibly cheap public transport on disposable income is best understood by Brits, New Yorkers and the very few others who have lived in western cities with a reasonably-developed metro network.

All of that combines to enable a sizable percentage of the population to have a high percentage of their income seem disposable.  Especially since the only savings mentality involves mattresses and closet shelves. Young girls are less likely to be expected to contribute to their family's food bill and the like. While the term "large amounts" is open to interpretation it is common in the large cities to see the middle class devs shelling out $125/month for language lessons, clubbing regularly and picking up a new pair of shoes every month or two.  Are these "normal" girls? Not as best as I can tell.

[Misha]

I don't think any of us are dating pensioners.

The vast majority of the FSU are living in their paid for homes/flats which has had an enormous effect on disposable income.

Yes, but a large chunk of those in the FSU who are living in their "paid for homes/flats" are pensioners  :evil: The problem is what do you do when you have more than one child? Not everybody can get a free apartment. Many young people took out mortgages and loans to buy rooms or apartments. They risk losing those flats if they lose their jobs and can't pay their loans. Also, there are those women who moved to other cities to find jobs and they have to rent flats to live. If you go to Moscow, for example, the cheapest place you will be able to find is an apartment for 20,000 rubles way in the Moscow Oblast. Once you pay for the apartment, public transportation, food, and everything else, you won't have that much left over. Lose your job, and you won't have any disposable income left over.

The fact of the matter is that most Russians earned little before the crisis and many will earn a lot less after the crisis. My wife, for example, was earning 10,000 rubles when she left. This was worth a bit more than $400 USD. Now, it would be worth a bit less than $300. Odds are good that her salary would have been cut. Plus, the cost of food has roughly doubled in the last few years IIRC, so she would not have had much left over at the end of the month, even if she had been living with her mother.

While the term "large amounts" is open to interpretation it is common in the large cities to see the middle class devs shelling out $125/month for language lessons, clubbing regularly and picking up a new pair of shoes every month or two.  Are these "normal" girls? Not as best as I can tell.

Depends. What you were describing would have been much more common a year ago, likely the same "dyevs" are spending less because of inflation, and will likely be spending a lot less a year for now as the crisis runs its course.

The fact of the matter is that Ukraine is teetering on the brink, countries such as Latvia will have no choice but to default, Hungary and Bulgaria risk being pulled down, and Russia will run out of reserves in anywhere from 4 months to 1.5 years and unless prices of oil go back through the roof, they will be in the same boat.

[Diplomacy]

Misha:

The population is shrinking.  What did they do about housing prior to now? 

If you have a grandmother on pension, grandfather on pension, husband, wife and children living together.  Utilities costs should be divided.  Do they charge utilities by a per person basis?

A lot of people that bought those places, did not want to live with their mother, grandmother, and whoever else get crammed in there.  Right?

[ECOCKS]

Discussing the current state of the FSU RE market and disposable income needs to be in the threads relating to the crisis and its effect on the FSU.

Back to this thread which concerns whether FSUW prefer WM. 

Folks can believe what they want but the facts speak for themselves. A low percentage of the female population seek WM and I have never run into any situations where a FSUW gal dumped her FSUM when a western passport was flashed.  People are getting married everyday without any western passports being involved.

That said, I guess you can speculate ad nauseum as to whether millions of AW have idle daydreams where their Viking/French/Jamaican/Latin/British/Russian/Arabian lover spirits them away to a life of endless chocolate Bonbons and all day soap operas.  Does that mean they prefer them?  I think Kim Cattrall and Catherine Zeta Jones are about the top of the female beauty chain, can one say I would "prefer" either of them over my wife? 

If the proof of "preference" is in their seeking out WM for dating and seeking to build a relationship then the answer is a resounding NO.

[Misha]

The population is shrinking.  What did they do about housing prior to now? 

They lived in villages that no longer exist. If you lucked out and your grandmother lived in Moscow or St. Petersburg or some other city where you can get a job and if that grandmother left you her apartment, you are laughing. If your grandparents and/or parents lived in a village that no longer exists or an industrial town that is dying with no jobs for you, then you are sc*wed.

If you have a grandmother on pension, grandfather on pension, husband, wife and children living together.  Utilities costs should be divided.  Do they charge utilities by a per person basis?

Remember you must have a "propiska" (official place of residence). If I am not mistaken, prices do go up for some utilities if you have more people officially registered as living in an apartment, but I am not certain about this.

A lot of people that bought those places, did not want to live with their mother, grandmother, and whoever else get crammed in there.  Right?

Exactly. If you did not luck out and manage to inherit a place to live, you have not choice but to buy or rent. Both were horrendously expensive these past few years.

[Misha]

Folks can believe what they want but the facts speak for themselves. A low percentage of the female population seek WM and I have never run into any situations where a FSUW gal dumped her FSUM when a western passport was flashed.  People are getting married everyday without any western passports being involved.

My only observation is this: for me, it was a lot easier to date and to find someone to marry in the FSU. I met a woman who was not looking for a foreigner, but was more than happy to marry a foreigner whom she thought would be a good husband.

[Diplomacy]

Could we turn this question around.  Why type of WM man, would a FSUW prefer over a RM?

[Misha]

Could we turn this question around.  Why type of WM man, would a FSUW prefer over a RM?

This is what my wife was looking for:

1. Very intelligent and educated;
2. Very kindhearted;
3. Tall;
4. Not a womanizer, nor a heavy drinker and preferably not a smoker.

There were a few other things that I do not recall at the moment. Interestingly, the categories very attractive and very wealthy were not in her list.

Misha

[Diplomacy]

It is OK Misha, I think you are interesting.

[ECOCKS]

Practical info: This is why registration is so difficult for long term resident expats. The ZHEK (UA) keeps a listing of who lives at each location.  The majority of buildings lack individual meters so they take utility consumption divide by the people living in the building and then multiply by the number registered for the apartment. The more people legitimately living at your apartment, the higher the bill. Basically that's it unless you were accorded some special benefit or status from the past.

[Misha]

It is OK Misha, I think you are interesting.

LOL! Thanks. I did not notice that grammatically incorrect structure in my post, so  I have retroactively corrected it

[Wienerin]

Mishenka:

I would not be laughing at Chivo.  Paying rent, is not the norm.  Living with parents and grandparents is closer to the norm.

They do not pay health insurance every month.  Their utility bills are subsidized and closer to 10%.  Most do not have cars, a lot that do.  Paid cash for them. 

You simply can not take the average income, then apply it to America. 

Mostly agree. It's not normal for younger people to settle apart from the family, so those who rent are in majority people who come to study or work in a big city from somewhere else.

As there're no rental apartment buildings at present, the availability of these indicates that families have more than one apartment, so they can live in one and rent another. My son lives in his wife's apartment and rents his own - the income is roughly equal his wages ...

If you start taking a serious look at disposable income.  It is a different picture, and the lack of understanding is an issue all of itself.

The Russian people are not going into deficit spending like you, they are closer in spending habits to our depression era families were.

It's a very difficult and complicated subject as we'll have to deal with totally different cultural and historical issues, different way of life (determined not only by necessity).

As integrated as I am into Amercian life (my interest, reading, studies, etc. have started long ago - 30+ years before I came over, so I didn't experience any "culture shock" at all) and as familiar as I am of the life in Russia, I were many times at a loss to describe to people from the West in general and more so to Americans what determined some4 of the differences of approach and behavior. "Mentality" if you please, though I heartily dislike the term.

Here is my breakdown

Yes, the FSUW are more accepting of a larger age gap.  That being said, the closer the better still. 

Wrong, - even 10 years is considered a large gap. I've heard 23-25 y.o. women rebuked by their friends and family for "going around", i.e. dating 32-35 y.o. men... "He is too old for you!" As to the other way around, when the woman is even 3-5 years older than her man, it's met with almost universal disdain. My family was a notable exception because of our family history - we had a number of female relatives marry men younger and even much younger (one of my Papa's cousins married a guy 27 years younger... they lived happily until she died, - and he never remarried) than themselves. So nobody was greatly shocked either by my sons marrying women 6 and 12 years older, nor by my union with The Boatswain, who is 15 years younger than I. Which doesn't say that these couples were accepted by many people.

[Wienerin]

Tell that to the pensioner who gets 4,000 rubles a month or the newly unemployed who might only get 1,000 or 2,000 rubles as unemployment benefits. I would have to look up the stats, but the reality is that the majority of Russians before the crisis were spending most if not all their income on food and utilities, and inflation was highest on basic food products. It is a bit of a myth to believe that most or even a majority of Russians have large amounts of disposable cash after they pay for the basic necessities, and the much ballyhooed Russian "middle class" that did have disposable income is being hit the hardest by the crisis.

Misha, I'm positive that you won't find reliable statistics - if only for one reason that for the most part people were paid in cash with the declared wage being much less, and not all income was declared. Bad as it would be here, but people who have apartments for rent do not declare this income (otherwise there wouldn't be much of an income... and this is only one reason)

And no, after the default of 1998 and until the end of last year people in general lived pretty well - with many more travelling abroad for vacation and even for shopping than they do here. They are and will be more hit by a crisis, for sure, but that is because the government killed trust and thus the desire to save in a series of atrocious thefts from its own people and general instability.

There's no significant safety net also. Just some examples - there are only two nursing homes for the whole of St.Petersburg for less than 300 inhabitants each. There's no equivalent of subsidized housing - family or senior. There are no foodstamps or any similar programs. These were all children of the Great Depression in the USA, but Russia simply didn't have time or resources to develop anything like this between one disaster and the next.

But aside from these interesting subject - why do we talk about this? Surely you do not mean to say, that RW prefer WM because they have more money?

[OlgaH]

 Wrong, - even 10 years is considered a large gap. I've heard 23-25 y.o. women rebuked by their friends and family for "going around", i.e. dating 32-35 y.o. men... "He is too old for you!"

I don't know where you have heard that from, but such nonsense I hear for the first time from you.

Just for the record two my grandfathers were 10 years older than my grandmothers. My father was 10 years older than my mother. My ex-husband is 15 years older than me. Robert is 14 years older than me. Some of my female friends in Russia have husbands and boyfriends who 10-17 years older. Several married couples at my work in Russia had 10-15 age gap.
Personally I have never heard from anyone ""He is too old for you!", but I will not be surprised if you will tell me  

[ECOCKS]

I would agree it is changing in the cities but 10 year gaps are still common. This seems to be especially true for those women who are widowed or divorced going for their second marriage, particularly when they have children.

[Wienerin]

They lived in villages that no longer exist. If you lucked out and your grandmother lived in Moscow or St. Petersburg or some other city where you can get a job and if that grandmother left you her apartment, you are laughing. If your grandparents and/or parents lived in a village that no longer exists or an industrial town that is dying with no jobs for you, then you are sc*wed.

Misha, wasn't this you who actively persuaded me that there is a satellite TV in every village and hamlet?

Many young people went from their villages and small towns to the bigger ones, it's true - which isn't at all different from other countries. But here in one paragraph you mixed situations from different times and places.

Villages that ceased to exist did so quite a time ago. People who moved to a city as the result - went as "limited workforce" - hence the derogatory term limita, and were given rooms in hostels (and by the end of the 70s even apartments), and in some industries they had a very good chance of getting an apartment in a new construction. Same with provincials coming to the universities, who one way or another - by their own outstanding achievement, through marrige, going to work as "limited skilled workforce", etc. managed to stay in a big city.

Valuable young professionals were called/transferred to Moscow and big regional centers like Novosibirsk, Yekaterinburg, Nizhni Novgorod, Rostov-na-Donu, Yaroslavl, etc. Where they usually were given apartments. Young professionals and skilled workers were lured to the undeveloped regions, big construction projects, etc. either with big money - which gave them an opportunity later to buy a co-op, or with apartment and promise of a career in a new industrial city - like Naberezhnyye Chelny.

Again, it's a long and involved story, with situation being different in Moscow, St.Petersburg, Nizhny, etc.

And again why talk about this in such a topic? Do RW prefer WM from de4speration?

Remember you must have a "propiska" (official place of residence). If I am not mistaken, prices do go up for some utilities if you have more people officially registered as living in an apartment, but I am not certain about this.

There's no "propiska" for the last 13 years or so. Only registration - much similar to the requirement to have your actual place of residence in your driver's license.

Gas and electricity are paid by the meter reading, same as here. Water usage and phone rates are set, and do not depend on how many people there are in the apartment.
Only in communal apartment your share of the utilities will depend on how many people there are in your family unit... but this is a totally different story again.

If you did not luck out and manage to inherit a place to live, you have not choice but to buy or rent. Both were horrendously expensive these past few years.

To luck out would mean that one didn't manage to inherit But let me tell you that in some of the biggest cities, including Moscow, which were almost totally reconstructed in Stalin's era and after the war too, there emerged now an interesting situation. The ones who received state apartments or bought co-ops were grandparents and parents of the present younger people. And as everyone usually has two sets of grandparents, and families with more than two children are rare - in big cities almost a relic, and there are no restrictions now to inheriting any number of apartments, since there is no "propiska" (one can be registered in one place, and own 2-3 more apartments, no questions asked - only pay the property taxes). I know quite a number of 25-40 year-olds, who have 2-3 apartments of their own (and a country cottage too), and not only in Moscow or Kiev or Novosibirsk...

I am not speaking about StPetersburg as for a number of reasons the housing situation there is rather peculiar not to say weird.

But still it has nothing to do with RW prefering (or not) WM to their own