TR: Barnaul/Tver, Russia

[groovlstk]

Ditto! Dave does have a knack of breaking things down.

Simoni,
I think we are both preaching to the choir but, I would even caution your condemnation of the the neutral site one week wonders. Even some of those work. Sure they are completely against what we know as the more tried and proven way for success and against all odds as we know them.

Had I not dated many divorced RW living in the US prior to meeting my wife I would have agreed with you. I was flummoxed by the sheer number of marriages to OWWs - every woman I dated had met and become engaged to their American (ex-) husband during a single trip with no followup visits while waiting for their K1s. I realize I have no hard statistics and it's foolish to extrapolate too much from one man's experience, but it scared the bejesus out of me.

[catzenmouse]

You're a pretty bright boy there Dave! 

They are, after all, Russian women who can be the most close minded and stubborn group on the planet.

I'd say we've had some folks in this thread who'd leave 'em in the dust wonderin' what just zoomed by.

[Simoni]

... and two petitions that were concealed by women...

concealed?  LOL  

You did mean canceled?

That is an interesting switch of words.   And the fact that some women do conceal, as Groove has posted above, is another reason to be very careful and very deliberate in this journey...

[GoodOlBoy]

Had I not dated many divorced RW living in the US prior to meeting my wife I would have agreed with you. I was flummoxed by the sheer number of marriages to OWWs - every woman I dated had met and become engaged to their American (ex-) husband during a single trip with no followup visits while waiting for their K1s. I realize I have no hard statistics and it's foolish to extrapolate too much from one man's experience, but it scared the bejesus out of me.

And this is where the fallacy of this argument lies.

Just because you go to an agency and meet one or two ladies and decide to spend some time with one, doesn't mean you have to marry her on the spot or even next week. Of course you go home and develop the relationship further through emails and telephone conversations and eventually revisiting her (if everything works out).

But to prance into a foreign city and start picking out 15-20 RW pictures, like lottery numbers for a Friday night raffle, is not only the behavior of somebody who isn't acting seriously but it flies in the face of being what we call here in the GoodOl' South, GENTLEMANLY. 



GOB

[Faux Pas]

Had I not dated many divorced RW living in the US prior to meeting my wife I would have agreed with you. I was flummoxed by the sheer number of marriages to OWWs - every woman I dated had met and become engaged to their American (ex-) husband during a single trip with no followup visits while waiting for their K1s. I realize I have no hard statistics and it's foolish to extrapolate too much from one man's experience, but it scared the bejesus out of me.

I see your point and whole-heartily agree with it. But, it only takes one successful OWW to prove my point. I would imagine there is at least one out there.....somewhere

I think most of us would agree OWW's are a roadmap for disaster and would never recommend to anyone to chose that route, and it would be excellent advice. But again, all it is , is advice. I don't want to steer this into VO vs VM or 1 trip or 100 but, I think it a bit sanctimonious for one to proclaim "this way is the right way" even though we can recognize some going a very difficult way.

[Admin]

The main problem I see with the trip report is the information it contained.

Jerry can go about his searching how he sees fit. When it is being written from a so called fantasy veiw and contains what I would call half truths is when creditbility issues come into play. Then people can question everything he types.

I can smell it coming from my screen.

If this is such a serious site(?) I feel for some of the new men and women who read it and take it for the full truth.

Hmmmm.

Jerry has been a member here since .... [checking his profile] .... September 2006 (freely available information anyone can check, BTW).

During that time of more than 2 years, I recall him being strong-willed, and generally quite helpful. I think there were some flare-ups with a member who no longer posts here - but overall, he has not been controversial at all.

Moreover, I don't recall anyone ever questioning his credibility or sincerity.

In other words, Jerry is known to our community, and has been a productive and contributing member.

In this instance, I believe Jerry's motives were to provide some useful information based on his own experiences, so that others might learn from it - and as things unfolded, I suspect it became both challenging and maybe a little helpful to him - as others were challenging some things he wrote and seeking clarification. While some of those questions were pointed and difficult, in the best instances - where the questioner was sincerely seeking to gain insight and understanding, I think Jerry could sense that and probing internally to find answers was, I suspect, at least somewhat helpful to Jerry as well.

THAT is the difference. When there is a sincere interest in trying to understand someone, there are questions posed and the acknowledged possibility of misinterpretation. When there are JUDGMENTS being made, those questions are either absent, or lack sincerity. The discourse takes on an entirely different 'feel' and tenor.

I find it objectionable when someone, like Jerry - a longtime member here - makes a solid contribution - and there are some who arrogantly elect to stand in judgment. Differences of opinion are fine - and we see one of those starkly portrayed in this very topic where Jerry and Tatiana are clearly not in concert over what went down in Barnaul. None of us can know, with certainty, what transpired - and both are free to state their perspectives - and they have. I do not see much mud-slinging - and I hope it stays that way. Strong-willed people are going to have disagreements. It goes with the territory. Confident and strong-willed people can respond to challenges without becoming defensive, and I think Jerry managed to walk that tightrope through this topic.

Bottom line is this - take from a TR the lessons, learned from others experiences (the most pain-free kind), and apply them to your own situation as best you can. Reject what does not apply to you, and move forward. THAT is the benefit of the TR's.

And one more thing - I genuinely like Jerry and I hope he is not dissuaded from sharing future experiences. If he is - that is a loss to our members. I also like Tatiana, though I have never worked with her and know little about her - but she was pretty classy with her responses - unlike some we have seen come barreling into RWD with a chip on their shoulders.

Let's make room for both - and let's all try to climb down off those high-horses and be a bit (maybe a LOT) more tolerant and accepting of others.

- Dan

[groovlstk]

And this is where the fallacy of this argument lies.

What argument? I wasn't aware I was making an argument, only pointing out the foolishness of marrying a stranger.

Just because you go to an agency and meet one or two ladies and decide to spend some time with one, doesn't mean you have to marry her on the spot or even next week. Of course you go home and develop the relationship further through emails and telephone conversations and eventually revisiting her (if everything works out).

But to prance into a foreign city and start picking out 15-20 RW pictures, like lottery numbers for a Friday night raffle, is not only the behavior of somebody who isn't acting seriously but it flies in the face of being what we call here in the GoodOl' South, GENTLEMANLY. 



GOB

We have different opinions on what sort of behavior constitutes a gentleman.

Some of you guys are like prissy schoolmarms, labeling every guy who dates multiple women or actually has sex within a few dates as a sex tourist. It would be cute or even admirable if the pool of women being defended were vestil virgins and not, in most cases, vastly more sexually experienced than the Western men who wish to rescue them 

[OlgaH]

concealed?  LOL  

You did mean canceled?

I mean that women decided not to throw in their lot with Jerry. It is probably good for him as it is probably good for that women.

I read Jerry's posts where he praises  Olga and his negative posts about her  , and what so interesting all his  negative comments about Olga appeared only when she said "she cannot leave Russia now", till that time everything was fine  

I really wish Jerry luck in finding his soulmate as he hopes for a luck.

[GoodOlBoy]

We have different opinions on what sort of behavior constitutes a gentleman.

Yes, Yankees do have a different "definition" for the word gentleman, than Southerner's do. 


GOB

[catzenmouse]

We have different opinions on what sort of behavior constitutes a gentleman.

Yes, Yankees do have a different "definition" for the word gentleman.

Well I was born and raised in the "GoodOl' South" and I'm in total agreement with Groov.

[SMS60]

I have a couple of questions??

1. What was the purpose of Jerrys trip report ? Maybe he can answer or others can clue me in.

2. Which members who posted in this thread are considered the "mental midgets" and members of the "peanut gallery". I would like to know.

3. Who are the people on their "high horse". I feel both sides are in this thread.

You know all forums are opinions. You have real people and trolls. You give feed back off of the posts or words they use. And maybe some history of their post's. You eventually get a feel of what they are about.


I give my side from what I read. I feel Jerry is not serious or is not capable of being serious. Who in the blank knows.

The defenders are for what reason? I gather because he can do what he wants its his life. Take his time, ect. Thats fine with me.

But brings me back to my first question. What was his purpose of the trip report?

Maybe these reports should not be allowed to be responded too.

[Admin]

I have a couple of questions??

1. What was the purpose of Jerrys trip report ? Maybe he can answer or others can clue me in.

2. Which members who posted in this thread are considered the "mental midgets" and members of the "peanut gallery". I would like to know.

3. Who are the people on their "high horse". I feel both sides are in this thread.

You know all forums are opinions. You have real people and trolls. You give feed back off of the posts or words they use. And maybe some history of their post's. You eventually get a feel of what they are about.


I give my side from what I read. I feel Jerry is not serious or is not capable of being serious. Who in the blank knows.

The defenders are for what reason? I gather because he can do what he wants its his life. Take his time, ect. Thats fine with me.

But brings me back to my first question. What was his purpose of the trip report?

Maybe these reports should not be allowed to be responded too.

>>What was his purpose of the trip report?<<

What difference does it make?

Some people will post a Trip Report out of altruism and a sense of 'giving back' to the community and educating others.

Some people feel the need for catharsis.

Some people want to 'get a rise' out of others.

In any case - who cares? What difference does it make?

The mere fact is - someone posted a trip report. They offered some information. Others can then 'drink from the well' *IF* they choose - OR - they can reject the offering and 'do their own thing.' Individual choice is one of RWD's foundational values.

RWD has posted "Guidelines for Civil Discourse" (found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7223.0), and our members are encouraged to read through those so that *IF* they are sincere about being a productive member here, they will know how to approach the diverse range of topics that appear here - EVEN when they disagree.

You will note that the guideline encourages respect and civility and tolerance. Those, BTW, are antithesis to judgment and criticism.

>>Maybe these reports should not be allowed to be responded too.<<

Yeah - we already thought of that. If you look at the Forum Index (main page of the forum), you will see a major forum entitled "Trip Reports." If you look just below the description of 'Trip Reports', you will see something called "Sub Boards" - and one of those is entitled "Trip Reports sans Responses." That specific Sub Board does NOT allow anyone to respond to a member's trip report.

I hope this helps.

- Dan

[Simoni]

But to prance into a foreign city and start picking out 15-20 RW pictures, like lottery numbers for a Friday night raffle, is not only the behavior of somebody who isn't acting seriously but it flies in the face of being what we call here in the GoodOl' South, GENTLEMANLY. 
 

You consider yourself a gentleman?  I know what a  gentlemen is, and they are cultured and do not throw around insults like the one you just flung.  Lots of RWD members have done Visit Many trips; it's not just Jerry.   I have already posted about this in this thread, but since you persist in your criticisms, I'll set the record straight here:

1)  There is nothing wrong with having dinner with an fsu girl in her city.  You asked her out and she accepted.  A third party has nothing to intrude about.

2)  Girls have their own agenda for meeting western men.  For many, it is to learn about a foreign country and to practice their English.  These dates are fun and productive for both.

3)  When I use an agency for dates, I am serious, on matter what you stated above.  The more girls you meet, the more likely you are to find a more perfect match.

4) It works.  Did you see the poll at RWD?  THE highest achieving method of men who met their matches came via agencies.  Many did as Gator has posted-- write 4 or so letters to girls and meet them, with the agency as a backup for more if you need.

Yes, Yankees do have a different "definition" for the word gentleman, than Southerner's do. 

Well, I am southern born and raised.  And as I pointed out above, your comments about fellow RWD men don't fit the definition of "gentleman" at all.

[GoodOlBoy]

.........in most cases, vastly more sexually experienced than the Western men who wish to rescue them 

Groovlstk, Simoni, Catzenmouse and any of the other "RWD anointed ones".

As I have already stated. Your definition of gentleman and mine is far apart.

I think that anyone that refers to a Russian Woman's virtue in such a manner as stated above by your "friend" Groovlstk is nothing short of scoundralism.


GOB

[BC]

GOB.. are you ireish?

[Admin]

Groovlstk, Simoni, Catzenmouse and any of the other "anointed ones".

As I have already stated. Your definition of gentleman and mine is far apart.

I think that anyone that refers to a Russian Woman's virtue in such a manner as stated above by your "friend" Groovlstk is nothing short of scoundralism.


GOB

GOB!

Somehow you guys are 'talking past each other.'

groov is just about as far from a "scoundrel" as I can imagine. Maybe at one time, but certainly not now and probably not for a very long time. He holds RW in high regard - and I should also point out - they seem to like him pretty well also.

Simoni and catz are also REALLY good guys.

Defending the virtues of RW, as a group, does strike me as a little odd - for any number of reasons. I also think it would be a little odd to defend the virtues of ANY group - men or women.

How about we all calm down and try to stick to the topic. This is, after all, a trip report initiated by Jerry.

- Dan

[groovlstk]

If Simoni and Catz are part of the ring of Scoundrals, then I'm proud to be a card carrying member.

We're drafting plans to buy some property near GOB and rent it out to Pike on weekends. And when Pike's not there, we'll find random Russian men to stay there (and stock the fridge with lots Russki Standard). 

[UTRO]

I'm wondering if Jerry might not just have a strong obsession with the FSU? Sure he's hoping to find someone... But I think he genuinely gets off on flying over and visiting different cities/regions, meeting the people, etc..... Period.  ???

[OlgaH]

3)  When I use an agency for dates, I am serious, on matter what you stated above.  The more girls you meet, the more likely you are to find a more perfect match.

For some people such dating way as three-five dates per day probably works. And what happened to av8tor?

 I turn and look away at the monitor because they're - for some reason - playing Phil Collins's "Groovy Kind of Love" (a love ballad from the 80s).  Though not a huge fan of it, the timing of this song is somehow mystical and endearing. "It's a sign!" I think.  Oh boy.  Then I take a deep breath and truly appreciate the value in times like these.  "And these are the moments I thank God that I'm alive.  And these are the moments I'll remember all my life..." is the song that comes to my mind.....I just sit a little.  Silently.  Gratefully.  Amazed.

After dates with different women during one trip he finally chose some kind of "mystical sign"   and that "mystical sign" unpleasantly surprised him.

[BC]

I hereby nominate OlgaH as the official RWD archaeologist.
 

[Simoni]

I hereby nominate OlgaH as the official RWD archaeologist.
 

Watch yourself, BC....or else you will be thrown in with the "scoundrels!"   

[Simoni]

I hereby nominate OlgaH as the official RWD archaeologist.

And can you imagine what she might find if she goes back to 2005 or 2006 and shifts through your 5,400 plus posts?

You are a goner, BC, a goner!

[OlgaH]

I hereby nominate OlgaH as the official RWD archaeologist.
 

BC, it is very serious matter. Along with commandment #6 Do not fall in love with photos!! there should be a commandment "Do not fall in love with mystical signs!!"

As I already said it is not probably about a dating way, but may be it is... There is something about Jerry, and most likely about his attitude towards the signs, luck, and so on. Read through his report "Tver, Russia" with multiply dates. He with his feelings was just lost in that multiply dates and that "mystical sign" took place.

[Vinnvinny]

How about another commandment?

'Don’t be surprised if during a Russian winter, in the middle of the night, a car might have problems starting causing it to be 5 minutes late for an airport pick up'.

Ok so I get to Barnaul at around 5:50 am their time (+3 hours from Moscow) and I'm using the Russian Pearls agency.  They were late in picking me up, supposedly due to their car having difficulties (it ran fine later that morning and didn't have problems again while I was there, so hmmmmm...).  They did show up after I waited for a short time, so hey. 

[Simoni]

How about another commandment?

'Don’t be surprised if during a Russian winter, in the middle of the night, a car might have problems starting causing it to be 5 minutes late for an airport pick up'.

In my business, I expect the unexpectant.

Failure is not an option.  That is the greatest training I have to give new employees.  Never ever fail. 

Or, as a poster here says,
"Git er done."