Another statistic

[Diplomacy]

Here we are a country that fights for independence.  Yet, in a lot of ways we force someone to be dependent for the short term.  I do not think that aspect can be discussed long enough.

I know it has been some very long conversations for us.  A team is dependent on each other, and does detract from some personal independence.  In any good relationship, it is about give and take.

A lot of us are with women, that are used to being the one that takes care of most things.  It is a very difficult dynamic to discuss.  Add to the fact, that many of the women have not been in healthy with men also.

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott,

May I ask some questions...  and please do not feel obliged to answer.

Obviously you've heard of/from your wife.  I wonder if you've asked or whether she has told you what the compelling event was for her? I can't help but wonder what she feels the reason was.

When I was reading the early part of this thread I wondered if she was simply determined NOT to leave the US and return to Ukraine, especially as she would be hearing of the deteriorating economy there.  These were my early thoughts about your breakup because I knew you'd always intended to return...  and I wasn't sure if it'd played any role in her actions.

Second,  your divorce laws sound different to ours here.  What difference or impact will her unwillingness to agree to an uncontested divorce have for you?  For me (in my first marriage) my wife simply wanted the satisfaction of having papers served on me.  None the less she told me she wanted to do this at my workplace to embarrass me.  Strangely enough when the documents were served on me my workmates all cheered (they weren't fond of my snobby first wife) and we all went out for a blinder of a night out.  The difference for us was increased lawyer bills.  I am curious about the differences her choices will make on you or her...

Third,  I image you're still planning on moving back to Ukraine.  I hope this happens for you and you have the apartment back there to settle into.  When you are ready - if ready - I think it'll be the highest value information to share your thoughts, feelings and actions.  That is a BIG ASK, but if and/or when you are willing I think you will be sharing something very special.

Kuna, let me try to answer these:

I've asked her what her reason for wanting a divorce was and she really can't give me a good answer.  I thought we were getting along just fine before she left for Ukraine to get her daughter.  From the bits and pieces I got from her mother when I called her, she apparently presented a bad picture of the situation here, I think in an effort to show her mother how good and strong she was in the face of such "difficult" circumstances.  When she arrived at the airport, she was rather cool.  Instead of running up and giving me a hug and kiss after her three weeks absence, she casually strolled up and asked where her luggage was.  At the time I just thought she was tired from the flight, but her relative coolness continued.  She claims she hadn't thought about leaving until three days prior, when we had an argument that started over her daughter's FU attitude and we both said some things to each other that weren't so nice, but really nothing that hadn't been said before.

I really believe the whole moving out episode was on an impulse due to discussions with some of her RW friends with the goal of having me beg her to come back and agreeing to any and all demands.  When she saw that I didn't get upset or make a scene when she moved out, and later when she saw that I had drawn up some preliminary divorce papers, it kind of backed her into a corner and her inherent stubbornness took over. She will never admit that she made a mistake.  Add to that some fueling of the fire by those at the shelter where she is staying with all their horror stories of bad marriages and the necessity to stand strong and protect herself from me, and it just snowballed.  She has a cheerleading crowd and I think she is enjoying it.  Of course all of our mutual friends think she is nuts.

The bad advice she is getting continues.  I need to do a change of address with INS as her sponsor but she took all of her documents so I don't have her alien registration number and it's needed on the form.  I called and asked for it, and after talking with "some people", she said that she wouldn't give it to me because I might do something evil with it.  Hey, I'm a US citizen, I don't need an alien registration number!  And as her sponsor I have a right and a need to have that number.  To date she still refuses, so I have an infopass appointment next week with the local immigration office to go and get the number.  What she fails to see is this is the same group that will interview her for removal of conditions and it won't look good for her if I have to go there and explain the situation.

I don't think it was an issue of me wanting to return to Ukraine and her wanting to stay, as we intended to stay here for at least another three years, so there was no rush to decide on this issue.  She does want to stay in the US, I think because she is enjoying some sense of independence with her work that she hasn't had before and also because she wants her daughter to stay here to finish school and have more opportunities, but she was very comfortable with the idea of us returning to Ukraine permanently.  When the issues with her visa are mentioned, she says, "If I have to go back to Ukraine it's no problem for me." She has a friend who is assistant to the mayor of Alushta who she claims has told her that she has a job for her anytine she wants, but I don't honestly believe, especially given the current economy, that there is a job waiting for her there.  She's really living in a fantasy world, refusing to face the realities until they smack her in the face.

My plan is still to eventually move back to Ukraine, but it may take longer now, and truth be told, it would be better for me if she was here and not there when I did move back.

Maybe the divorce laws are different there, probably so.  If we have an uncontested divorce, we can do the papers on line, sign that we both agree to the terms, and it is stamped by the judge without a trial or other hassles and no need for attorneys.  The total cost would be $177.  With a contested divorce, lawyers get involved and unless there is a settlement reached, it goes to trial in front of a judge with a minimal cost in fees of around $10,000 for each party.  I hope she gets an attorney because if he's any good at all he will tell her the same things that I have been trying to tell her and maybe she will listen to him.

Life isn't really much different for me.  I'm still doing all of the same things I did before, like the cooking, cleaning and laundry, I just don't have that constant underlying tension around.  I guess the biggest thing I dread is the eventual beginning of the dating process all over again.  It makes me tired just to think about it.

[Sculpto]

Scott.. dont start any dating process yet.  you are not in the right emotional state for it and you will just waste your time and the time of anyone you date.  I highly recommend a vacation, once you can afford it, to Rio or Medellin or Costa Rica. 

Also, I know you want to be a mensch, but, I think you should stop worrying about HER situation.  She dug her hole. let her bury herself in it.  She isn't your problem anymore except in respect to process.  I know that sounds harsh, but, it is clearly time to take care of Scott. 

I also want you to know I am learning a lot from your situation.  I can see a few too many similiarities with my situation and to be honest I feel like I am backing off a little.  With my job situation and everything else that has happened I am re-evaluating everything.  "A" should be back from Armenia any day now and I am just not sure how I feel anymore.  I feel like I could go either way at this point.  A little bit of indifference has settled in my heart and that is not a good sign for me.  In good measure this is happening because of what you are going through.  Ok, a big SIGH now...

[ScottinCrimea]

Sculpto, don't worry, getting back into the dating scene is WAY down my list of priorities right now.  I think your idea of a vacation is a great one.  Not sure when I can swing it with my various commitments, but it would certainly do me a world of good.  With my Spanish language skills, somewhere down south might be just the ticket.  Of course there's always the option of a sex tour through Ukraine. 

I have heard the same thing from others, and I understand the wisdom in it, but after 5 years of caring for a person it's difficult to just let go and watch her sink.  I would like to part as friends, but I don't think she is going to let that happen and will continue to blame me for the consequences of her own choices if I continue to offer help.

From past experience I know it will happen, it just takes a little time and adjustment.  I think I'm still in the process of analyzing the whole situation to learn what I can do better at, both in the selection process and in the handling of any future relationship.

Right now all of our conversations are strictly business, going through the process of separating our lives.  I am out of the business of sacrificing my best interests for hers, and that's a good thing.

[Daveman]

Scott, she's obviously adept at blame shifting.  As long as you are tangible to the situation, you will be blamed for anything and everything that not only goes bad, but for anything that does not match her fantasy based expectations.  She has a picture in her mind and and as whatever that is doesn't come to fruition, it will be 100% your fault.  As much as I would wish for you to be able to part friends, I think you really need to just part. Explain the situation to INS to retrieve whatever number you need and then. The longer this drags on and the more dire her straits become, the larger the chance that she's going to really turn nasty.  From only what you've written in this thread she will undoubtedly sacrifice you to the gods of self preservation by whatever means necessary and not give it a second thought because -- it's your fault anyway and you should have done whatever she wanted when you had the chance -- you chose not to be the good husband, so she's absolutely vindicated of even the slightest responsibility for what happens to you as a result of following more advice from the hens.


Don't take that chance, Scott.   

[ScottinCrimea]

While the blame shifting is definitely an issue, many of her actions lately are totally out of character for her.  In the past, when we had talked about splitting up, there was none of this protect herself and throw me under the bus attitude.  Even now I think she is having an internal struggle between what she feels is the right thing to do and what she is hearing from these hens about what she must do to protect herself from the evil husband.  I think my fair and nice reactions run contrary to what she is being told will happen and I think this is still a point of confusion for her.  Still, over time, as they have more and more time to influence her, I think it will continue to shift, so I'm pulling back more and more.

[Sculpto]

blame shifting =

man, the more I hear in this thread the more I want to back away from my situation.  This particular phrase is resonating in ways you all can not imagine.

At one point I was talking about going to Russia instead of her coming here.  She said she would only agree to it if I promised never to blame her for anything that went wrong in my life as a consequence of moving there.  And of course on the other hand.. if she comes here anything that goes wrong in her life will be my fault and she will make me pay dearly for it. 

The word "psycho" is starting to infiltrate my brain. 

[Sculpto]

  Of course there's always the option of a sex tour through Ukraine. 

I know you are kind of joking.. but.. if there is any seriousness in yoru joke I think you know there are much better places to do that than Ukraine.

[ScottinCrimea]

true,...not like I have to speak their language or anything.

[Daveman]

man, the more I hear in this thread the more I want to back away from my situation.  This particular phrase is resonating in ways you all can not imagine.

At one point I was talking about going to Russia instead of her coming here.  She said she would only agree to it if I promised never to blame her for anything that went wrong in my life as a consequence of moving there.  And of course on the other hand.. if she comes here anything that goes wrong in her life will be my fault and she will make me pay dearly for it. 

The word "psycho" is starting to infiltrate my brain. 

Sculpto, I think there are many of us who are reevaluating more than a couple of our previous thought patterns after reading this thread as well as KenC's.  In reality, at this moment, you are probably emotionally like a swinging pendulum. You had BadTrip/GoodTrip/BadTrip/GreatTrip and now these shocker stories. While I've said more than once that I think you should move on, I will play my own devil's advocate at this moment and say that you really can't make a life changing decision until that pendulum is dead center, level and calm. Then you'll trust that what you chosen is the best for the best possible reasons... and you'll know it without second guessing yourself.  Relax... take your time and collect your thoughts and feelings and the right path will absolutely open before you without a doubt.  Flame spinners activated -- 

[ScottinCrimea]

While this is very much a story about one man and one woman, my hope in presenting this was that there would be some things that would cause some people to take a second look and see if some of these issues are present in their own relationship and are things they can either work through by being aware of them or else see a fatal flaw.

One of the biggest mistakes I made was thinking that certain traits of hers were situational and once the situation was changed, that her behaviors would change.  The bottom line, though, was that she carried her character with her into any situation.  New situations maybe caused new behaviors, but they were all consistent with her underlying character.

[KenC]

Scott,
You need to quit obssesing about her problems and potential mistakes.  She choose to take a path without you, let her chips fall as they may.  It is really all out of your control any way.  The sooner you focus on "Scott" the better off you will be.  Any free time, go fishing.
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

Hey, you're 8 months ahead of me Ken.  Give me a little time.

Actually, I don't think I'm obsessing, it's just that until the split is complete, I need to be mindful of her problems that can become my problems.

[beachcomber556]

Scott, I want to first extend my sympathies, and second to thank you for sharing all this.  It gives, I think, all of us males of the species cause to pause and reflect.  Vika and I are going through a very difficult time right now.  Perhaps we are headed in the same direction as you and yours.  Your willingness to bare and share all helps me more than you can imagine.  The whole character thing you have mentioned rings loud and clear.  I think to myself, "there is no fool like an old fool".  Now here I am at nearly 53 facing the unpleasant prospect of starting all over again.     Maybe not, maybe.  But lots of warning signs are pointing in that direction. 

I have not been keeping up with folks here on the RWD.  You stated that KenC was 8 months ahead of you.  Do I understand correctly that KenC has also hit upon the same hard times?

[Ade]

I think to myself, "there is no fool like an old fool". 

It seems to be the nature of man to delude themselves into seeing what they would like to see and that is exacerbated ten fold when women are involved; I've done it myself and every man I know has fooled themselves about something at one time or other.

[SMS60]

While the blame shifting is definitely an issue, many of her actions lately are totally out of character for her.  In the past, when we had talked about splitting up, there was none of this protect herself and throw me under the bus attitude.

This is her character. Her mask came off. It is for real now. She is using her protective behaviours. She is in survival mode. Like a wild animal backed into a corner. Be careful.

Each time you post................ I get this feeling the situation is going to go from bad to a nightmare. Thinking it could happen before you sign the papers.

Most people have been in a situation in their life where their heart has been ripped out. What happens next is the clear thinking goes away because of being emotional pain.

Think of cutting all contact.......period. You know its over. Start living that way.

If you would cut all contact and disappear today you would be suprised at what happens. This is about "you" and healing. You cannot heal while she is still manipulating you. Once she knows you have shut the door on her you wont be able to get away from her. She will blow your phone up trying to contact you. Human nature. Try it but dont answer and move on with your life. Never see or communicate with her again. She will go bonkers. But who cares.

Have a 3rd party take care of the divorce papers.

Good luck



 

[MaxxumUSA]

scott,

This is my first time here in many months.  In any case...  sorry to hear about your troubles.  I am confident you will come through this in the long run and figure everything out.

It honestly seems to me that somewhere in the back of her head this was a possible plan for her.  Not that she conciously planned things like this - but she had the ability to basically leave you after she and her daughter were safe in USA.

As for her status - well there are many many people living in USA illegally.  I have not heard of immigration knocking on doors and putting people on airplanes back to their homeland.  I'm sure it does happen - just I have not heard of it on this forum.

And yes - as you suggested I did use this thread as a tool to view my own relationship with my wife.  Thank god there are very few similarities.  Of course my wife asks for nicer TV, nicer car, nicer furniture, etc.  But it is never an argument.  Recently she talked me into a plasma tv which I declared we did not need but I must admit I enjoy it very much!  LOL

In any case...  I recommend the following things that I did for the newcomers reading this thread:

1.  VISIT your woman and WATCH how she treats other people and family.  These actions will NOT change when she moves to USA.  No matter where she goes - she will take herself.

2.  Find a woman with a killer body and nice breasts.  This removes (greatly reduces at least) the option of her wanting plastic surgery.  LMAO - but seriously - a woman who is happy with her own looks and body will be a much happier and healthier person.

3.  Do not be discouraged by some failures posted here.  We all make mistakes and none of us are guaranteed a marriage 'till death do us part'.  Even myself I need to work daily on my marriage to keep things going.  If you are willing to do the work you might be as happy as some of us and find your best friend and soulmate.

With that - Good luck scott.

- David

[WmGO]

Thanks Scott for sharing with us the details
of your very personal story. It takes a lot of guts and humility to
do that.

I can guarantee that there are many people benefitting
from it. I am sure many are reevaluating character issues pertaining to
their girlfriends and boyfriends.

Take heed to protect your interests by being very careful. It looks like
you are doing so. That is wise.

***********

I have always said that there is no more important factor in relationships than character. And it takes a lot of time to learn and discover what another person's true character is. Across the  ocean/cross cultural relationships make it just that much more difficult to determine. Factor in a radically changing world where self and material things become more and more exalted as the seeming be all and end all of life and it just makes things that much more difficult.

Time, lots of time and common sense reflection is
required - and the ability and willingness to not ignore or rationalize away
what we see with our own two eyes. What we know in our heart is the true
reality.

 

[Misha]

One of the biggest mistakes I made was thinking that certain traits of hers were situational and once the situation was changed, that her behaviors would change.  The bottom line, though, was that she carried her character with her into any situation.  New situations maybe caused new behaviors, but they were all consistent with her underlying character.

This is so true. The biggest mistake that we make IMHO, speaking from experience, is that we expect (hope) that they will change. Sadly, as you write, this rarely if ever happens. The problems identified in the first few weeks, months, will be there years down the road. The important question to ask is: "if she did not change, would I still love be able to love and be married to this person." If the answer is no, then for both sakes it is better to part ways as soon as possible and certainly before marriage.

[bobb]

One of the biggest mistakes I made was thinking that certain traits of hers were situational and once the situation was changed, that her behaviors would change.  The bottom line, though, was that she carried her character with her into any situation.  New situations maybe caused new behaviors, but they were all consistent with her underlying character.

Four years ago after my second visit to a woman from Ukraine I did realize certain traits of hers were not situational.  I should have realized it earlier, but I had time committed, emotions, etc., and other rationalizations.  But, I did realize it before mistakes were made.   

Your story is a good lesson for others Scott. 

[WmGO]

The important question to ask is: "if she did not change, would I still love be able to love and be married to this person." If the answer is no, then for both sakes it is better to part ways as soon as possible and certainly before marriage.

Stated differently: would I trust this person with my life and my heart?

Personally, I can only love someone, referring to romantic love, if I admire
and respect them. For me, such admiration and respect is based upon the
woman's good character. Yes, chemistry, mutual beliefs, goals and interests and
physical attraction are also important, but there is nothing more important than
good character, not perfection, but certainly the overall basics of good character.

[Misha]

Yes, chemistry, mutual beliefs, goals and interests and
physical attraction are also important, but there is nothing more important than
good character, not perfection, but certainly the overall basics of good character.

I meant love in the love that you have for a person once the sheen of romantic love has passed (i.e. in a couple or a few years). I do agree about character. But, there is also the question of compatibility as well. A woman may have a good character and you will still not be a good fit. Do you share similar values? Do you share similar goals? Do you enjoy being together in a non-intimate way (simply put, when you are not having sex, do you actually enjoy each others company)? What do you share in common? Do you want to change her or hope that she will change simply because she moves country?

[Zhena]

Didnt read the whole topic,just the first page.
I am sorry,Scott,I really do.
Let me explain the RWs point of view. At first,very little number of women will put up with the luck of money. Rws point is-he should go and work even 4 jobs,if needed,but support the family decently. And why would she need the husband at all,if she needs to work hard? Why did she came to america?For certain,not to be miserable. Of course,she probably lived much worse in Ukraine,but...when she comes here,she starts to compare. With the same girls as she is. When she sees that someone gets more,she feels insulted and fooled-of course,she thinks she deserves not less. She is so young and beautiful. And her new gfs start to tell her: who are you spending your life for? If he even cant buy yiu the new car?! Look at yourself,you can do much better! And the woman is contaminated with the jelaousy from now and on. To more lucky gfs. And she wants the same. And she divorces her hubsand as a result.
What to do? Probably,dont marry the women from FSU :)Or marry the older ones,same age as you are,cos they are wiser. I am serious. I dotn criticise anybody,especially Scottin. But this is just a sad truth,do you like it or not....Women like the money. This is not the reason to divorce a husband in the difficult times,but many will do. So you better be rich or look very carefully for a life partner.
Oops,my husband just told me that my post is mean

[Zhena]

Yes,about her finansial situation now...I dont know,if somebody said that already...She probably counts on alimony from you and that you ll pay all expenses for the lawyer. And be sure,that she will start  dating as soon as possible,to find somebody else,who will provide.

[Misha]

What to do?

Spend more time getting to know a woman and making sure you marry the right woman? Not ignoring warning signs or hoping that she will change?