Realities of FSUW

[Doll]

Doll, I already know your preferences, I just disagree with your need to project these preferences onto every other RW on this planet  

[Doll]

brucen36, just relax! There will be no logic 

[Sculpto]

Sculpto,
If your GF comes to the US and you put the above described financial plan into practice, you are in for one rude awakening!

Do not stop posting, please, it will be one interesting story

Pitbull.. and this goes to Zhena also because one of her earlier comments implies the same thing...

I have a unique lady.  She happens to be very responsible about money at the same time not obsessed with it but also apparently very good at earning it.  This was one of my primary concerns when searching for a woman and was always discussed very early, whether I found the lady on an agency site or elsewhere.  Lots of women were against my plans.  Very few thought it was normal, but, a few did. 

The best example besides my GF is my friend in Odessa, the one who was over 6 feet tall.  She is exactly the same as "A" in that when I asked her about financial arrangements and if she expected me to support her she simply laughed and said.. "Why I will want that?  You think I am stupid and can not work and can not earn my own money?  I not need man for money, I need man for love" 

That same friend from Odessa is now living in Kiev and working as an actress on a Ukrainian TV show.  Probably she is making more money than I am.  She still sends me a message now and then usually with something like.. "why you do not like tall woman?"  LOL  And for the record, she is even more "alternative" than I am.  She is the one who really talked to me about the cave people at Mangup Cale, smoking weed and salvia and eating hallucinogenic mushrooms and having visions of the ancient priests of Mangup.  There ARE wierdos like me in the FSU. 

In the case of "A", on both trips to Moscow to see her she paid her own way to Moscow, paid for a considerable amount of our mutual expenses for food and entertainment while there and did not like it if I overspent on something.  The apartment really comes to mind.  I had her meet with the apartment owner the day before I arrived so it would be easier.  When she understood how much I paid, btw it was only $60 a night for Moscow, she was not happy about it and argued with the apartment owner.  He reduced the price telling him, "Eric maybe not know how much it is worth the apartment, but, I know and it not good you cheat Eric this way"  On those words he gave us a better deal.  (if anyone needs a clean and safe Moscow apartment for a good price let me know and I will pass on the contact)

So, however you think about your own lives and the level of responsibility your husbands have to spoil you is fine for you, but, it is not for me nor is it fine for my girl.  BTW.. the first thing she asked me when I told her I was laid off is, "Eric you have money?  I send you something if you need"  It is not the first time she offered to send me money.  She also wants me to guard several thousand she is expecting to earn so we can invest it in our Mexican cafe.

I would also mention a report I saw on RT a few months ago.  Although RTs reporting on international issues tends towards a stupid kind of propoganda I do find their reporting about internal Russian issues to be interesting.  Anyway, in the segment I saw they were interviewing women regarding their relationships with men.  Over and over they had women on that were the bread winners for their husbands/boyfriends.  Most of them were complaining about it and some had been scam victims from Russian men, but, the overall message was that it is very common for Russian women to pay the bills and as the situation for women in the workforce continues to improve this phenomena becomes more and more common. 

So, rather I would suggest that ladies who expect support and constant material gifts being the normal in fact I think it is the exact opposite and that a good FSUW will do everything she can to contribute to the family finances.   

Zhena.. I do want to apologize if you feel offended.. but.. my earlier comments were designed as a mirror to show you how I felt about the comments you were making about me.  I have learned it is almost impossible to have an arguement/discussion with an FSUW that already has made her decisions.  Her opinions will always be the right ones and anyone who does not agree with her is either stupid or a fool.  I find this characteristic exceptionally frustrating and quite honestly in regards to my own relationship it is the only real worry that I have. 

"A" has strong opinions on just about everything and some of her opinions are in fact malinformed, especially inregard to life in the USA.  I have learned with her that it is better to keep my mouth shut in the heat of the moment, not forget the particular issue, and when a good opportunity arrises to PROVE my point bring it up again.  When I approach things that way she will be flexible, but, if I tell her she is wrong she will either get angry or just change the subject.  Mirroring also seems to work quite well.

[Sculpto]

Misha (and others), listen: things that RW tell WM, what they think and what they do may be veeeeeeeeeeeery different. Very!

I think Doll is right about this.  I wonder about this a lot.  I personally can not stomach what is known as "passive aggresive behavior" and consider it a sign of a borderline personality disorder.  I started to notice this kind of "say one thing do another" in FSUW quite some time ago and my first reaction was that I was seeing PAB.  But, I have come to learn that is not really the case.  I have a theory...

my theory is simply that relations between men and women in the FSU are so skewed in the favor of men that women learn to manipulate at a very high level to get what they want.  The appropriate reaction from men should be to ignore what they are actually saying and do just about the opposite of whatever is being requested.  Every situation is different of course, but, as WM we have to learn to read between the lines of incredible BS that FSUWs will spew.

I also wonder somewhat if the years of repression under the SU has anything to do with it.  Doublespeak?  I don't know enough FSU men to comment accurately, though my business dealings would indicate they practice the same methodology.

[Sculpto]

That usually means you feel you're losing.  But ok call it quits.  I'm not trying to belittle you, just imposing a little logic.

Logic?  Tell me one instance in which logic is of any value in questions of love?  Logic is for science and engineering.. not for relations of the heart.  Love is by definition illogical. 

[mies]

She happens to be very responsible about money at the same time not obsessed with it but also apparently very good at earning it. 

i am taking this phrase out of context,

it is very easy not to be obsessed with money when you don't have to think where to get money to buy food to eat and soap to wash for the next few weeks.
Oh, and once in FSU did you have a chance to go to the rural toilets where old newspapers are used as a toilet paper? Maybe this is where the russian expression "this matter is for my butt"="i can't care less" comes from.

[pitbull]

Pitbull.. and this goes to Zhena also because one of her earlier comments implies the same thing...

I have a unique lady.  She happens to be very responsible about money at the same time not obsessed with it but also apparently very good at earning it.  This was one of my primary concerns when searching for a woman and was always discussed very early, whether I found the lady on an agency site or elsewhere.  Lots of women were against my plans.  Very few thought it was normal, but, a few did. 


So, however you think about your own lives and the level of responsibility your husbands have to spoil you is fine for you, but, it is not for me nor is it fine for my girl.  BTW.. the first thing she asked me when I told her I was laid off is, "Eric you have money?  I send you something if you need"  It is not the first time she offered to send me money.  She also wants me to guard several thousand she is expecting to earn so we can invest it in our Mexican cafe.

Sculpto, your blah-blah about how unique your GF is is quite cute, but it has very little value, unless you bring her over, and your "financial plans" work for you both, and it is all still fine with her after she has her GC.... Then please let me know and I'll eat my shoes, I swear...

You have no idea about what I think about my husband's responsibility to spoil me and how much I contribute to family finances and well-being... I just don't share private details on a public forum.

From your many stories, however, it turns out your GF is much younger than you are, has very bad English, narrow views on the world, propensity to heavy drinking and completely useless education in regards to the US reality. How you imagine her to be able to support herself in the US is beyond me.

But again, please continue posting, your story is seriously amusing  

[mies]

Logic?  Tell me one instance in which logic is of any value in questions of love?  Logic is for science and engineering.. not for relations of the heart.  Love is by definition illogical. 

completely agree. there is not much logic in love.
though not everything illogical can be named love.

[brucen36]

Logic?  Tell me one instance in which logic is of any value in questions of love?  Logic is for science and engineering.. not for relations of the heart.  Love is by definition illogical. 

Ummmm, how about a 50 year old falling in love with a 20 year old and using logic to realize that the liklihood of it working out is very low, hence moving on and finding someone more appropriate.  By the way, I'm not referring to anyone in particular.

[Ronnie]

A few instances that come from my experience.  Make of them what you will.

1)  I was walking along the sidewalk one winter evening in Dnipropetrovsk, heading to the marschrutka staging area.  As I approach my destination I reached into the front right pocket of my jeans to pull out a 5 Hr. note.  As I pulled out my hand another 5 Hr note fell to the ground and realizing I immediately stopped and picked up the note.  I had no sooner straightened up when a lady walking behind me with her husband who had seen what happened exclaimed (in Russian of course), "that belongs to my husband!  Give it to him now!" 

I looked at her in disbelief, her eyes were blazing,  then I glanced at her husband who was looking away in embarassment.  I gave her the note without a word and walked on, amazed at what some FSU women will do for so little money.

2) My stepson not long ago had a live-in relationship with a 18 year old Russian girl.  She had come from Khabarosvk a few years earlier with her mother who married a much older Jewish-American man whom she absolutely did not love (she told me wife as much).  One day I was driving the young RW to work and we began talking about my stepson's future.  She said, "He better be rich, I told him I will not marry him unless he is rich!"   A few months later, she started going out while my stepson was working often not coming back until morning.  We were relieved when she left the relationship.

3) My wife met a sweet Ukrainian lady at ESL class.  She was a widow from Odessa, who managed to get a visitor visa pursuant to an invitiation letter from a professional couple, immigrants from Russia and living in California who needed a live-in nanny for their two small children.  When she returned to Odessa, her recently married son and his wife were living in the family apartment.  The son, would often travel away overnight on sales trips.  On those occasions the bride would go out, dressed to kill and often return in early morning hours, and was seen stepping from a Mercedes with an older man as her escort.

4)  I have often overheard conversations between ladies, discussing how a some girl "married lucky".  It is an expression that is a normal part of their culture.

It is undeniable by anyone with comparative experience that there exists in the FSUW psyche a powerful desire for material wealth and a covetous nature toward those who have it.  An yes, they will, and often do, enter loveless marriages. 

Can't we just accept this one very self-evident reality and move along?  FSUW have many positive, counter-balancing virtures.

[Daveman]

I think this topic has less to do with money and more to do with the ability to discern and correctly match value systems.  Some put a high value on material items, some don't.

Even materialism is not about the material things.  It's absolutely and completely about the "feelings" people think/presume that these material things will bring.  Freedom/independence/stability/adventure/fun/envy/etc.

Money is nothing but paper; a car is nothing but a hunk of metal. The feelings they represent to the individual mindset is what becomes important.  A mismatch of that mindset is catastrophic to a relationship.

All FSUW are not materialistic, and all WM are not trying to buy a young babe.  But for those who fall into those categories, they make a good match, at least temporarily.  

Money is a merely byproduct of mindset implemented with behavior.  

The feeling some get through making/spending money, other get through different means.  That is the "richness" of life. The bottom line is, we want to "feel" something. If we feel the contentenment that we wish to feel, we have succeeded in life, whether that falls under societal definitions or not.

Match the value beliefs.  It really is that simple.  There is some effort involved, but doing so will eliminate a lot of crap from our lives.

[Ranetka]

A few instances that come from my experience.  Make of them what you will.

1)  I was walking along the sidewalk one winter evening in Dnipropetrovsk, heading to the marschrutka staging area.  As I approach my destination I reached into the front right pocket of my jeans to pull out a 5 Hr. note.  As I pulled out my hand another 5 Hr note fell to the ground and realizing I immediately stopped and picked up the note.  I had no sooner straightened up when a lady walking behind me with her husband who had seen what happened exclaimed (in Russian of course), "that belongs to my husband!  Give it to him now!" 

I looked at her in disbelief, her eyes were blazing,  then I glanced at her husband who was looking away in embarassment.  I gave her the note without a word and walked on, amazed at what some FSU women will do for so little money.

2) My stepson not long ago had a live-in relationship with a 18 year old Russian girl.  She had come from Khabarosvk a few years earlier with her mother who married a much older Jewish-American man whom she absolutely did not love (she told me wife as much).  One day I was driving the young RW to work and we began talking about my stepson's future.  She said, "He better be rich, I told him I will not marry him unless he is rich!"   A few months later, she started going out while my stepson was working often not coming back until morning.  We were relieved when she left the relationship.

3) My wife met a sweet Ukrainian lady at ESL class.  She was a widow from Odessa, who managed to get a visitor visa pursuant to an invitiation letter from a professional couple, immigrants from Russia and living in California who needed a live-in nanny for their two small children.  When she returned to Odessa, her recently married son and his wife were living in the family apartment.  The son, would often travel away overnight on sales trips.  On those occasions the bride would go out, dressed to kill and often return in early morning hours, and was seen stepping from a Mercedes with an older man as her escort.

4)  I have often overheard conversations between ladies, discussing how a some girl "married lucky".  It is an expression that is a normal part of their culture.

It is undeniable by anyone with comparative experience that there exists in the FSUW psyche a powerful desire for material wealth and a covetous nature toward those who have it.  An yes, they will, and often do, enter loveless marriages. 

Can't we just accept this one very self-evident reality and move along?  FSUW have many positive, counter-balancing virtures.

I would like to ask you a personal question Ronnie.

I do not remeber a single instance when you would have said anything good or neutral about FSU or FSUWs.

You do not like the culture. You do not like the mentality. You accuse people in all possible character flaws. You do not like historical past or present. You do not like past SU politics or modern politics of Russia (not sure if Ukraine is OK for you). I can cite plenty of your post (just like your last one) when you generalise - you say things like this is in their culture etc.

Is there anything you like in FSU apart from the fact that your wife is from there? Albeit she seems like nothing like everyone else. What made you look for a wife there?

Please notice I am not making judgements or argue but I would REALLY appreciate you to answer please.

[Sculpto]

Sculpto, your blah-blah about how unique your GF is is quite cute, but it has very little value, unless you bring her over, and your "financial plans" work for you both, and it is all still fine with her after she has her GC.... Then please let me know and I'll eat my shoes, I swear...

What you fail to realize is my GF was not on a marriage site or even a dating site.  her coming to the US with me is to be with me.  Not some other plan.  She would prefer to live in Russia but is worried that if I go over there and do not have success finding work that i would somehow blame her.  She feels she will be more adaptable to the dynamic of life here than I would be to the dynamic of life there. 

You have no idea about what I think about my husband's responsibility to spoil me and how much I contribute to family finances and well-being... I just don't share private details on a public forum.

I wasn't talking about you.  But, since you reacted it would seem it touched a nerve.

From your many stories, however, it turns out your GF is much younger than you are, has very bad English, narrow views on the world, propensity to heavy drinking and completely useless education in regards to the US reality. How you imagine her to be able to support herself in the US is beyond me.

Her ability to adapt to a new reality is going to be the main factor in how the marriage goes.  I am a lot mroe aware of this than you might think.  I brought a French woman over in the 90's and she was not able to adapt.  She was always two steps late in everything and was very unhappy.  She self destructed and tried her best to take me with her.  I know the warning signs and i know what I did wrong so I am cnfident I can help "A" in the right ways. 

As far as her ability to earn.. she amazes me now with the things she does, so, I am not especially worried that she will not be able to find her niche in the American economy.  English at this stage is not a big issue.  18 Months ago when we first started to communicate she couldn't speak English at all.  Her chats were pretty good and one day I asked her how she was doing it and she told me she was using translation software.  The English she has now is totally self taught.  She joked with me about how she was always skipping her English classes in "high school" and last winter ran into her teacher and spoke to her in English.  The teacher was shocked.  She is actively learning more English right now on her own. 

As far as the alcohol.. I am sure she will moderate on her own if she is an environment where not a lot of people drink.  She has ssured me of this anyway so I am not worried about that either.

[Sculpto]

Ummmm, how about a 50 year old falling in love with a 20 year old and using logic to realize that the liklihood of it working out is very low, hence moving on and finding someone more appropriate.  By the way, I'm not referring to anyone in particular.

If the 20 year old felt the same as the 50 year old then his decision is not logical but in fact based on emotional fear and a lack of self esteem.

[brucen36]

If the 20 year old felt the same as the 50 year old then his decision is not logical but in fact based on emotional fear and a lack of self esteem.

I'm talking about it from the perspective of the 50 year old man.  You said there is no place for logic in love.  Would it not be wise (logical) of this man to forego this woman to someone that is more appropriate for him?  And this is just one example.  There are many other examples of the importance of using logic when making such decisions spread across this board.  Just go and read some of the disaster stories.

[Sculpto]

I do not remeber a single instance when you would have said anything good or neutral about FSU or FSUWs.

Ranetka.. I am not going to answer for Ronnie as he may have different reasons but I want to tell you about a man I know.

This guy is from Texas and was a cattleman before he moved to the Bay Area.  He is of the cold war generation.  I teased him that I was going to buy him one of the baseball caps with the Soviet Star that are sold to tourists on Arbat.  He got a really angry look on his face and told me he would never wear it.  He then went on to say some really bad things about the SU and modern Russia.  For him, and for many others of his generation and education and political orientation Russia was, is and will always be the enemy and a terrible place.  

I find that sort of ignorance intolerable.  But, it has become clear to me that the same bias against the USA is alive and well inside Russia.  Too many "sheep" like people believe in the nationalistic patriotic propoganda promoted by both countries on both sides of the oceans.  The liklihood of that ever changing is pretty slim.  I personally find it terribly sad and frustrating because if the west and Russia were ever able to really unify, the way the US/Canada is unified with most of Europe, there would be a much lower sociopolitical threat level from the islamists and a much lower industrial threat level from the Chinese.  But, I doubt it will happen.  

Russia has a history of distrust of the west that goes back how many centuries?  Russia never sees its imperial empire building as anything but benign, nor does the USA see its empire any differently.  We are the two great nations of the world yet we seem more content to compete than to cooperate.  

[Sculpto]

I'm talking about it from the perspective of the 50 year old man.  You said there is no place for logic in love.  Would it not be wise (logical) of this man to forego this woman to someone that is more appropriate for him?  And this is just one example.  There are many other examples of the importance of using logic when making such decisions spread across this board.  Just go and read some of the disaster stories.

Who defines what is appropriate?

Here is a personal example that in my case eliminated any misgivings I had about being with a younger woman.

My Ukrainian great grandfather married twice.  His first wife died young.  In his early 50's he married again to a woman about 20 years younger than him and had 7 children with her, including my Grandfather.

So, no, it is not logical to discount ANY chance for true love regardless of any obstacles or percieved appropriateness.

[brucen36]

Who defines what is appropriate?


So, no, it is not logical to discount ANY chance for true love regardless of any obstacles or percieved appropriateness.

Well to one extent the law defines what is appropriate.  Would you condone a relationship between a 50 year old and 17 year old even if both proclaimed their undying love?  After the law it's common sense and statistical patterns of divorce rates for large age gap marriages.

[Ronnie]

I would like to ask you a personal question Ronnie.

I do not remeber a single instance when you would have said anything good or neutral about FSU or FSUWs.

You do not like the culture. You do not like the mentality. You accuse people in all possible character flaws. You do not like historical past or present. You do not like past SU politics or modern politics of Russia (not sure if Ukraine is OK for you). I can cite plenty of your post (just like your last one) when you generalise - you say things like this is in their culture etc.

Is there anything you like in FSU apart from the fact that your wife is from there? Albeit she seems like nothing like everyone else. What made you look for a wife there?

Please notice I am not making judgements or argue but I would REALLY appreciate you to answer please.

This is a very good question Ranetka.  One that I am happy to do my best to answer.

Perhaps my problem is that I don't look at the FSU with rose-colored glasses.  Frankly, before my first trip, I had no preconceived notions.  I had studied Russian in college and always had a curiosity about the people who live there.  The realities you see me describe are neither sugar-coated nor exaggerated, they are just conclusions formed by an abundance of evidence.

As far as what's good about the FSU and it's people.  I wish Americans and others could take a bit more pride in their own nation.  Russians in particular have a great deal of it.  Like all good things however, they can be taken to an extreme.

I have also admiration at how FSU people help each other in time of need.  People seldom turn their backs on family members and close friends.  They do make a clear distinction however between friend and acquaintance.  Friends are few, most are acquaintances.

What can you say to a country that has by far the poorest standard of living of any white nation?  What you can say is they have been duped by the so-called intelligentsia that believed that the individual Russian or Ukrainian was mere clay in their hands?  I blame their naivete in politics and the fact that they have never known anything but repression for allowing their society to fall so far behind the rest.

Now, about why I chose to marry a Ukrainian.  That's a complex subject, one I don't fully understand myself.  I jilted a very lovely and intelligent AW I was dating in order to finish my quest in the FSU.  I still don't know why I did that but don't think about it much.

My guess is that subconsciencioulsy I wanted to be part of giving someone a new start in life.  I'm not motivated much by what I can get out of it, I've been that way since my early childhood - rather more focused on helping others.  I realize this seems like bragging but I'm speaking as honestly as I can.  I do really get a kick out or doing good for someone without expecting anything in return.  Selfishly speaking, that is what gives me my happiness.

I dont' think I am alone in this.   I think it's little discussed here but when you read between the lines of many of the postings, it's clear there are many other WM here who feel likewise.  These men, are vulnerable to abuse by FSUW.  They should choose very wisely and carefully that woman who deserves them most.  A woman who can be raised in a den of social corruption yet come out with her values in good order, she is just such a woman.

[Mir]

Well we can argue till eternity if RW are as a whole materialistic or not>However before we do this lets agree on the definition of what is materialistic?

[mies]

Ummmm, how about a 50 year old falling in love with a 20 year old and using logic to realize that the liklihood of it working out is very low, hence moving on and finding someone more appropriate.  By the way, I'm not referring to anyone in particular.

using logic - maybe some 50yo men would prefer 3 happy years with a beautiful 20yo arm-candy over 20-30 years with not-so-beautiful 55-60yo woman.

Would it not be wise (logical) of this man to forego this woman to someone that is more appropriate for him?

No, because different people have different utilities. If the utility from 3 years with 20yo is higher than 30 years with 50-60yo - than it's completely rational and logical to be together with a 20yo.

[Ranetka]

My guess is that subconsciencioulsy I wanted to be part of giving someone a new start in life.  I'm not motivated much by what I can get out of it, I've been that way since my early childhood - rather more focused on helping others.  I realize this seems like bragging but I'm speaking as honestly as I can.  I do really get a kick out or doing good for someone without expecting anything in return.  Selfishly speaking, that is what gives me my happiness.

You are clearly an intelligent man Ronnie.

Do you realise that what you said here may sound like a knight-in-the-shining-armour syndrom?

And thank you for the answer.

[brucen36]

using logic - maybe some 50yo men would prefer 3 happy years with a beautiful 20yo arm-candy over 20-30 years with not-so-beautiful 55-60yo woman.

Agreed.  But if the implicit goal is to find something long lasting and stable, then a beautiful 20yo will not likely cut it.  Depends on your goals.

[acrzybear]

As far as what's good about the FSU and it's people.  I wish Americans and others could take a bit more pride in their own nation.  Russians in particular have a great deal of it.  Like all good things however, they can be taken to an extreme. My belief is that the reason for this is that the American population has been brainwashed not to hurt  or offend others feelings. Political correctness is one of the factors that is leading to the demise of this once great nation.

I have also admiration at how FSU people help each other in time of need.  People seldom turn their backs on family members and close friends.  They do make a clear distinction however between friend and acquaintance.  Friends are few, most are acquaintances. I have experienced this first hand and it reminds me of how people used to get together and help each other out, now everyone is all about me and mine.

What can you say to a country that has by far the poorest standard of living of any white nation?  What you can say is they have been duped by the so-called intelligentsia that believed that the individual Russian or Ukrainian was mere clay in their hands?  I blame their naivete in politics and the fact that they have never known anything but repression for allowing their society to fall so far behind the rest. One of the things I find amazing is that how the average Russian is able to make do with so little.  Here in the United States we have to have the latest electronic gadgets or doodad.

[mies]

Agreed.  But if the implicit goal is to find something long lasting and stable, then a beautiful 20yo will not likely cut it.  Depends on your goals.

agreed.
For example some people prefer to be miserable and for them it is a logical and rational choice to do so.