I'm new here

[dogspot]

DJG,

Do yourself a favor and get on a plane and visit Alina. This is the only way to know whether she is real or not. Guys around here are always going to prepare you for the worst but that doesn’t mean they are always right. There is always a possibility that she is real and sincere. Get on the plane and go experience life in another country. I am sure there is something there for you that you won’t find in Iowa.

Also, sign up on Mamba and chat with some other RW. Be prepared with a backup plan in case things don’t work out with Alina. You are not the only guy who is taking a risk by traveling to another country to meet a woman. Most guys here in this forum have been in a similar situation as you. The smart ones had a backup plan.

The important thing is, be prepared. If things don’t work out as you picture them in your mind, don’t let it ruin you. There is no such thing as “the perfect match” or “the one”. There are many others…and many of them are living in Ukraine and looking for a good man.

Best of luck to you.

[Shadow]

DJGothman,

Even in the worst agencies there are real women.
While some things may not look good, there is the outlook of a personal meeting.
If that happens, it will clear all doubt one way or another.

As far as support, sometimes the best support is the kind that is hard to swallow.
However you must take it to the limit of possibility, as that is the only way to find the truth.

Life is way too precious to give up, no matter how dark the days are.

[Blues Fairy]

Gothman,

Your last post sounds like you're about to place on this poor girl's shoulders all the responsibility for your sorry life and feeble sanity.  Put yourself in her shoes; would you, in her place, have liked someone like you to so wholly depend on you?  Wouldn't it be a tad too overwhelming?  Russian women, or any women for that matter, don't like drama queens.  Think about that and do start looking for a credible therapist BEFORE you venture into a long-distance relationship of any sort.   

[djgothman]

I'm certainly not the most sane. The shrinks I see would say the same... manic depression with psychotic mania. Yes I'm seeing doctors... for many years now. It's certainly not uncommon for Goth's to be under this sort of medical/mental treatment. Welcome to OUR reality. One of our most common topics of converstaion is the various meds we've been prescribed. We're knowlegable about pharmaceuticals that claim to lessen the depression... but alas, it's not uncommon for me and many I know to go through weeks or months of time completely crippeled with the darkness.
I'm not going to blame Goth... it is what I am as a result of my life. It's not really something that is explainable to the mainstream... it's what it is and the scene provides the social environment as a sort of support group for the messed up people that nobody really wants. At the same time it is a philosophy of principals by which to live and it's also a common view of the darkness in the world. It is a spiritual faith in tomorrow... and the source of strength in belonging. It's tribal in that we have our OWN ritualism complete with a heirachial structure of leadership. It is it's very own society apart from all other social structures be it religion, race, sex or anything. The culture of the rejects you might say.

I'm not expecting you all to understand. There are many things that I cannot understand that those in the mainstream close to me can't explain. Alina is a true Goth. She has the same mentality built a bit skewed in a way that we Goths can immediately recognize and relate. I've known this for years... from the very first email I got from her. I've always been very active in my Goth scene to help those less fortunate than myself as I too was helped when I was lost. I have met hundreds of Goths all over the world now since I met Alina, but it was from her that I've learned that Goth is the very same there as here at home. We speak the same language, I suppose. She is my Morticia and I am her Gomez.

And that's how Alina and I have thought about each other... we even joke about it. She's even mentioned she would love a little Wednesday. We chat about the world we build together in our imagination.

Were both very depressive people who have brought a little sunshine on each other's rainy day. I've watched her go from sad to happy on camera when she notices me message her... in fact it's something I watch every single time we chat. She smiles and I melt when we chat and we both feel stronger inside.

Now, many people want to cast the clouds on the rays of light I feel from her. I don't know... maybe she's just very convincing windowdressing and playing me as a fool laughing all the way to the bank. It wouldn't surprise me with the sort of luck I have and it DEFINITELY wouldnt be the first or 50th time I've been played by someone. The trouble with Goth's is that we are typically over-reactive and so, to have a bubble burst could be life threatening. It's not as though we dont have the prescriptions to do the job 20-fold over. That's another commonality amongst Goths is our "escape plan".

I obviously cant travel to meet her when she hasn't even visited the agency to accept my "intimacy request". I can't make plans to meet her yet at all. I'm playing a waiting game and every day grows a little darker than the last.

Starting over for me now is a mountain to climb after falling down a bottomless pit. If Alina is all a hoax...

[dogspot]

I obviously cant travel to meet her when she hasn't even visited the agency to accept my "intimacy request".

Please elaborate a little more on this "intimacy request." Is this a new development in your relationship?

[JR]

AGENCY = BAD! Two years at an agency is crazy!

If you have spoken with her on the phone she shoul have given you her contact info then. I can't believe that in two years you didn't google her name.

No kidding she doubts you, you've bowed out four times. You must go. But prepare a back-up plan should she prove to be an illusion or either of you "don't feel it" when you finally meet.

[JR]

So now I don't know what to do. Dreams are crushed, hopes are gone... my future is dismal. Maybe I should just end everything like I knew I should have 10 years ago.

What you need to do is wake up to what you do have. Stop with all the negativity. Look in the mirror and learn to love what you see. Goth=Depression. Well then stop being Goth.

Look, what you are doing isn't working. So do something else. I mean in your life. Sleep sixteen hours a day? Join the Peace Corp and go to Africa where you'll be able to contrast lifestyles and realize just how great you've got it.

Above all, stop being a victim. You created your life, own it. Don't like it? Change it!

[Blues Fairy]

I'm certainly not the most sane. The shrinks I see would say the same... manic depression with psychotic mania.  it's not uncommon for me and many I know to go through weeks or months of time completely crippeled with the darkness.

It's not really something that is explainable to the mainstream... it's what it is and the scene provides the social environment as a sort of support group for the messed up people that nobody really wants. The culture of the rejects you might say.

In that case, a mega train wreck might be just your thing.  Imagine yourself returning to your community of messed-up drama queens and rejects with a harrowing tale of your Ukrainian bubble-burst and a newly reinforced sense of your wretchedness, your life and sanity hanging on a thread as is appropriate for a true Goth.  :evil:  A win-win situation, either if your girl is for real or if she's not!

Yet, if she's for real, there's going to be a whole new host of reality smacks.  The process of bringing a fiancee to the US, I'm sorry to tell you, is not designed for people like you.  It's designed for us mainstream folks, able to endure a long saga of bureaucracy and logistical hurdles, meticulous paperwork and all the issues of adapting to life in a new country.  Folks with stable, persistent, fun-loving and adventurous character.  Optimists, fighters, achievers.

So if you are bent on this venture, I urge you to give a serious thought to the future with this (or any) woman and what you are ready to do to make it work - beyond your "2-year investment" of webcam chats. 

On the other hand, things do happen...
http://www.visajourney.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=toprated&cat=-2&pos=191
http://www.visajourney.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=toprated&cat=-2&pos=192
http://www.visajourney.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=toprated&cat=-2&pos=193 

[JR]

Two years and you never google her name...the photo of Alina Vinokurova on FB sure looks like it could be your girl. Check it out, she even likes music.

[GQBlues]

I'm certainly not the most sane. The shrinks I see would say the same... manic depression with psychotic mania. Yes I'm seeing doctors... for many years now. It's certainly not uncommon for Goth's to be under this sort of medical/mental treatment. Welcome to OUR reality. One of our most common topics of converstaion is the various meds we've been prescribed. We're knowlegable about pharmaceuticals that claim to lessen the depression... but alas, it's not uncommon for me and many I know to go through weeks or months of time completely crippeled with the darkness.
I'm not going to blame Goth... it is what I am as a result of my life. It's not really something that is explainable to the mainstream...

Sad. I used to have a girlfriend who's father was Manic-Depressive. Hands down, the most brilliant man I have ever known - when he's in a treated normal state. Untreated, he is unbearably repulsive when he's depressive, and dangerously volatile when manic.

The real sad part of this is, unless he subscribe to the medications prescribed there's not much anyone can do to get him treated. So everyone rides the tide along with him.

It is not a crime to be manic-depressive but I agree with BF, it is at least your responsibility to let others know the extent of your state.

[djgothman]

I'm not unaccustomed to taking risks. I broke out of myself to explore the goth scene alone. I started my OWN goth scene. I even became a newspaper publisher for a regional scene for 2 years. I spent way more time and money on that than Alina. It was a risk not only for failure but for financial ruin and even further segregation. It paid off in the way that I truly DID help those who had no one else in their worlds. This was my true reward for my efforts and my "risk".

As far as Goth - get over it... grow up... suck it up... Play a fiddle... heard it all. I didnt chose this life. Its a combination of my environment, upbringing, social interraction, and physical chemistry. It's 39 years of trying to understand the nature of the beast inside me. It's silently observing people from the shadows to obtain glimpses of the "other side". Depression is NOT something you just get over and it is people that say this kind of ignorant nonsense that further isolate those of us afflicted.

I AM ready for the challenge. In my heart I believe it.

Here is a piece of philosophy I learned at a young age. There are 2 types of people in this world. There are astronauts and there are astronimers.

The astronaut is the adventurer that learns by doing. The astronomer learns by observation. I am the latter. This does not mean I am incapable of daring moves. In fact turbulance in deep waters is a daily process just trying to assimilate in a world of people that all reject you.

I cannot defend myself from everyone. You cannot see through my eyes, nor have you seen the horrors of my life. It is persumptious to suggest a therepudic means to my emotional problems or of any other goth or anyone suffering from manic depression. It is only something you can understand if you are one of the unlucky ones. You do not feel the desire in my heart. You have not read any of our emails or chats. And you cannot speak for me when we live in different worlds with different values and a belief system of our own. Goth is not for you if you cannot understand. Depression is not part of your reality and be glad for that. It's the worst kind of curse... far worse than death. Take a look at the suicide rate amongst us. I consider myself a true survivor... and I try to impart my strength on others like myself.

Whether the source of depression is "real" or not, the feelings are there and its debilitating as all hell. Don't tell me to grow up. Already been there. I've already seen the darkest depths of hell within my soul. Being bi-polar also means there are times when we acheive "clarity". When these manias occur we can do anything. Its like being superman for a day and the next, you're drowning in a sea of kryptonite.

The Alina Vinokurova in facebook is not my Alina... been there but thanks.

[Sculpto]

DJ.. I have been to Kherson, via RLM/HRB.  I know the agency you will visit.  We need to talk!  I am in the chat waiting.

[OlgaH]

sorry to tell you this, but all you describe is typical of agency scam.
even if she is with an agency, the first thing she would have done within very short time (1 month) is to give you her phone and ask you for your cell phone to exchange sms.

Absolutely agree. Welcome djgothman to the World of disillusionment (  I just try to hold your leitmotif) 

[Blues Fairy]

I cannot defend myself from everyone. You cannot see through my eyes, nor have you seen the horrors of my life. It is persumptious to suggest a therepudic means to my emotional problems or of any other goth or anyone suffering from manic depression. It is only something you can understand if you are one of the unlucky ones. You do not feel the desire in my heart. You have not read any of our emails or chats. And you cannot speak for me when we live in different worlds with different values and a belief system of our own. Goth is not for you if you cannot understand.

It's all about you, you, you, isn't it?  Do you actually listen to what people are telling you? 
It's obviously useless to tell you to overcome your depression; enjoy it and revel in it to your heart's content.  Just don't drag another innocent creature into it, to set her up for a train wreck of her own, on your turf, without proper support from you.  It's the girl who, if she's for real, will have to undertake all the risks and suffer all the damages; not you.  So  do her a favor, stick to the webcam chats and emails, unless you are ready to step out of your miserable persona and be a real man.  Which (ready to do so) you are obviously not.   

[OlgaH]

Alina is a true Goth. She has the same mentality built a bit skewed in a way that we Goths can immediately recognize and relate. She is my Morticia and I am her Gomez.

djgothman, if Alina and you have so much in common as Morticia and Gomez does (btw I like the show) most likely you both will have a long life together building your own imaginative world and philosophizing about meaning of death light through the prism of life's depressing darkness.   But your meeting face to face is deadly essential for both of you, she and you need to know if you both are for real. And only the meeting will be a fatal beginning or a fatal end of your expectation.    

[djgothman]

ok, Blues Fairy... POOF! im not goth... oh wait, hold on...




POOF!, im not depressed anymore... WOW youre pretty smart with your many many years of diagnostic techniques into the human psyche. Where did you get you psychiatric degree again?

Thanks for you help... I'm a different person completely now!

OMG I see the light and now I can see!

all it took was for me to cross my arms and nod my head... forget about the 12 years of therapy with over 10 different psychiatrists and psychologists... forget about the 30 dozen prescriptions I could write books on, you cured me completely.

Thanks for your help and being so kind... exactly what I needed to grow up and become a "REAL" man

You really dont understand anything that I HAVE SAID and demonstrated the nature of those that scorn the likes of poor pathetic loser rejects like myself. You are the reason I hate people... you are the epitome of all I detest about society.

...the Goth-basher

[Sculpto]

It's all about you, you, you, isn't it?  Do you actually listen to what people are telling you? 
It's obviously useless to tell you to overcome your depression; enjoy it and revel in it to your heart's content.  Just don't drag another innocent creature into it, to set her up for a train wreck of her own, on your turf, without proper support from you.  It's the girl who, if she's for real, will have to undertake all the risks and suffer all the damages; not you.  So  do her a favor, stick to the webcam chats and emails, unless you are ready to step out of your miserable persona and be a real man.  Which (ready to do so) you are obviously not.   

See.. now if DJ was a true submissive all he would have to do is find a lady like Blues Fairy who could insult him all the time.. he would be really "happy" then..

LOL sorry DJ.. not digging at you..

[djgothman]

lol... ya like that last response?

Ya, I've faced my share of bashers in my life. Got in plenty of fights verbal AND physical. My responses are practiced.

The truth is, it takes a goth to understand a goth and most people dont have the first slightest clue the mental issues we face every single day. We have to work twice as hard for a fraction of the understanding we deserve... and we deserve better treatment for what we inevitably contribute to society in the form of art music and scientific acheivement. We are by no means the stupid and the ignorant.

As far as mental problems, it's deplorable to speak badly about someone afflicted. You wouldn't push a person in a wheelchair down the stairs... don't berate me for my problems. I'm a human being with the same rights as the pretty people... and I dont appreciate being discredited for a disability or a social class. You wouldn't use the "N" word refering to an African American.

Respect and understanding... tolerance and open-mindedness. something we all deserve.

oh and ya Blues Fairy is right... i should just stay away from all women... i wouldn't want to subject my depression on some poor unsuspecting goth girl thats never been sad a day in her life.

[djgothman]

Ok now let's please try and be more constructive than criticizing. I've spent time in chat and have talked to many of you now. Thank you all for being so informative. Although not very much positive in all the talk, it was thorough and honest and it helped me. Thank you for your concern... i suppose I'm really sort of overwhelmed at the response. I dont think I was really expecting to meet people in my situation, much less chat for hours.

I'm a very private person in some respects although if you were to read my blogs over the past 5 years you would get seasick from the ups and downs. I make no disguise as to who I am and I do this not for pity but to document my... periods of insanity and depression. it's just easier to defend my thoughts in blogs in order for people to accept me than to play those typical dating rituals.

For those I've chatted with today...

I sent an email to RLM and stood up and said that I've been a member for 2 years... followed the rules all in good faith... and requested immediate contact be made to Alina to discuss the issue of private contact information exchange. I mentioned that I'm in contact with many people on various messageboards for western men/FSU women, and that I have been warned. It was a very firm email but not threatening or abusive. I'm already informed on how the game is played... and so, how to play MINE.

I dont want to lose faith but yes i am doing what I need to be informed. I have lost faith tho and it hurts to be put back in my dark place, but I would rather find out now than 4 grand later. If the result is hoax then you will probably be soon to know as I... however it would inevitably lead to further periods of even deeper isolation... it is what it is even with the most expensive meds that insurance can buy. I know me... ive spent my life diagnosing this thing since the first moment I knew I was different.

I've been in long term relationships before... 6 years in one and engaged, and 8 in my last one. And they both ended as badly as the worst case scenerio your imagination could even conjure up in 20 billion years... lol trust me on this. I'm getting old and I feel like dying from the lonliness most of the time. If i survive this failure... i don't think there will be anymore pony rides for me. It's not gonna happen because i wont let anymore people in. Its really a lot to invest in emotion and the pain of failure gets worse every time around... and i think you can all agree on that one fact.

I'll keep ya all informed if you wanna watch the drama here as I plunge forth into the great unknown... I was a DJ... and I always put on one hell of a show wherever I go... it's my gift AND my curse.

[GQBlues]

DJgothman-

Is this your Alina? If it is, and based on your avatar (if that is you), you can potentially make a nice looking couple. I mean that sincerely.

No matter what happens in your present quest, I do wish you the very best.

[djgothman]

AWWwwwwww! that was the nicest thing anyone has said and yes its her.

but its goth deception... we goth are damn ugly people (at least in this country) without our garb LOL.

funny 'cause it's true...
Sad because it me 

myspace.com/djgothman

[I/O]

djgothman: You aren't going to find the help you need chasing dreams around Ukraine on the internet.

[djgothman]

and that reply was just kind of insensitive AND unhelpful

do you mean to say get off my ass and go?
or do you mean crawl back inside your hole and forget your dreams?

[docetae]

and that reply was just kind of insensitive AND unhelpful

do you mean to say get off my ass and go?
or do you mean crawl back inside your hole and forget your dreams?

1 - Stop to say that your attitude is because you are goth..etc. BS.
2 - Take your ass on a plane and fly to Ukraine. After 2 years you have built a projection of your wishes, reality check is needed now.

[BC]

and that reply was just kind of insensitive AND unhelpful

dj,

Can't read I/O's mind but probably just a 'get real' type comment.  You'll get a lot of different views around here and that's quite ok.  I usually learn the most from posts I don't like or agree with.

I left the chat last night since it was well after my bedtime, but rest assured everyone there did have you in mind and were there because they do care..

Haven't seen so many in chat in a long time.

Anyway glad you're ok and absorbing a taste of the atmosphere here.

Interesting lifestyle you lead and look forward to reading your experiences.

Welcome.