I'm new here

[tim 360]

Olga, Gothman wasn't interested in opinions about whether Alina is real or not. In his first post he indicated concerns about whether he was being scammed, but he had absolutely no interest in hearing others' thoughts on this unless it supported his fantasy. At the first indication that people suspected there might be a problem, he threatened to stop posting.

If one discounts the whole goth aspect to gothman then what is one left with?  We have a 39 year old guy who has been using some dubious agency in Kherson to correspond with a young girl (ugh 20?) for about 2 years.  His only means of communication with this Alina is through the agency and she won't/can't give him her personal email address or phone number.  Cell phones and email are rather common in Ukraine so of course the agency has been feeding his fantasy and charging him for it.  This would not be an unknown occurence...goth or non-goth.  Could Alina possibly be a scam--you bettcha. 

Next he suffers from manic depression and some degree of bi-polarism for which he has a professional treating him.  Having known a few people with the same problems I have seen how a condition like that could wreek havoc on any relationship.  Probably the professional treating him would be far more familiar with him and his condition than anyone on this board.  I can't see how ANY Doctor would recommend for him to travel to Ukraine and possibly begin a relationship the elusive Alina.  He should consult with his Doctor.  Honestly, I can't see how anyone can recommend for him to jump on a plane and head on over to Kherson and let that agency fleece him further. 

[tim 360]

Even though a smiley is attached, there is a lot of truth to this statement.

In one way or another we all have 'issues' upstairs .  The difference lies only in measure.. nobody is perfect.

We use many words here with little effort to define.. this causes many unnecessary 'battle of words'.

Just an example.

Some strong words have been used here like 'pedophile' with NO common definition but a wide range of subjective and wide legal application.  Just a little example, the age of consent in Italy was RAISED to the age of 14 not too long ago by dropping the subjective exception for 12 year old girls that could be considered well.. 'of loose moral character'..

Current law: The age of consent in Italy is 14 years, with a close-in-age exception that allows those aged 13 to engage in sexual activity with partners who are less than 3 years older. The age of consent rises to 16 if one of the participants has some kind of influence on the other (e.g. teacher, tutor, biological or adoptive parent).[2]. Not knowing the fact that the victim is underage is considered a mitigating circumstance.[3]  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

Now compare that with laws in other countries of the world..  Spain, plain and simple 13, USA.. well... naa - lets not go there..

In any case, use of the word pedophile in the context of this board is totally unwarranted, but as always we should ALL carry around a salt shaker and be ready to apply liberally when necessary.

Yeah,  Can't see how the guy gets the pedophile tag.  She's 20 or so.

[LEGAL]

_____________________________

[OlgaH]

Look Olga, I see there's no stopping you when you ride on your white rhino to the defense of all the poor and downtrodden of this world, but to equate me with high school bullies?  Aren't you building a straw man here?

So one more of your  epithets to me and to Mark. Please, continue, I guess you have more of epithets. You can call Mark with different names as you wish, for me he is still a human being with his own personality and dignity despite his illness.

I don't equate you with high school bullies, I just asked you where the cruelty of that high school bullies comes from?

[groovlstk]

Is there a problem to express a concerns about being scammed? There is a whole section "Scammers and Suspect Agencies" on the board where members express their concern. From his first post he wrote that he is a Goth and posted link to his page on "My space".   So knowing about goth sub-culture it is not difficult to understand that there might be a problem. He has his own hopes and dreams as we all do, but his sensitivity to the words of other people and to the lost of his hope is much different due to his mental conditions and he expresses himself different. Problem is that some people who consider themselves to be normal don't know where to stop with their "reasonable" advices with insults.

I don't think his post below is a threat... after being insulted.

Olga, suffice it to say that I agree with you and other posters that feel Gothman is deserving of our compassion and underserving of any insults related to his mental illness. In my parents' time, people with depression were urged to suck it up or put on a happy face. That didn't work then and it won't work now, as the cause of his disorder is chemistry, not attitude.

However, I disagree on what constitutes compassion here. I think encouraging him to visit Kherson is irresponsible and dangerous, even if it makes him (and you) feel good today.

It's too bad he's flown the coop, because I'd love to hear how his therapist feels about all this when there is a strong possibility that he may find out he's being scammed, and subsequently experience a complete breakdown all alone in a country that lacks rudimentary psychiatric care.

[Gator]

I believe these most recent posts reflect the sentiment of the majority.

Honestly, I can't see how anyone can recommend for him to jump on a plane and head on over to Kherson and let that agency fleece him further. 

However, I disagree on what constitutes compassion here. I think encouraging him to visit Kherson is irresponsible and dangerous, even if it makes him (and you) feel good today.

DJ has my sympathy for 1) his mental condition and 2) spending good money chasing what seems to be a fantasy.   He does not have my encouragement to take a trip. 

Among those feeling compassion, are there any volunteers to accompany DJ on a trip?   I know, I know .... your busy schedule will not allow it.  However, if you were thinking about going to Ukraine soon, would you call DJ and explore the possibility of traveling together?

[Shadow]

Knowing the modus operandi of RLM and equal agencies, I have no fear fo him going on a trip and breaking down. If its a scam, she will be out of sight before it.
And DJG will probably be smart enough te be able to cancel his trip should it happen.

[OlgaH]

However, I disagree on what constitutes compassion here. I think encouraging him to visit Kherson is irresponsible and dangerous, even if it makes him (and you) feel good today.

The situation with Mark needs understanding and elementary ethics. Though Mark told us that he has bipolar disorder it was and it is beyond of all human ethics to throw his illness into his face more over in insulting way.

People with this illness can lead full and productive lives, but I would not recommend him to take a long trip without his doctor's consultation either. I'm sure he understands it too and as I wrote before he is not an idiot or absolutely incapable person.

Is it so difficult for "normal" people to give him advise without insults regarding his illness and to show and offer emotional support, understanding, patience (as it is suggested in a Bipolar disorder guide)?  

[GQBlues]

The situation with Mark needs understanding and elementary ethics. Though Mark told us that he has bipolar disorder it was and it is beyond of all human ethics to throw his illness into his face more over in insulting way.

I agree. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[LEGAL]

This is my final post... no defence no more attacks... I quit

Wow it only took three days to run off the new member djgothman.
I wonder if that is a new record?
Some maybe proud some will have justifications. Its just shamefull!
I do believe what comes around goes around.
This is the main reason for losing members or people not posting, especially the women!

[OlgaH]

I agree. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

I guess you know better.

[RussianWind]

I find this thread hilarious. Mark left 5 pages ago and you are still discussing which disorder he has. You are discussing and making diagnosis of a person you never seen 

[I/O]

I would never ask anybody here on RWD are you a "Goth" or "mentally ill"...would you??

In a round about way the question has been asked many times on here and diagnosis / prognosis provided for good measure.

B/F has IMO hit the money with every post in this thread. It's become a "you're with us or you're with them" debate which is not doing anything to further anyone's cause and frankly I think the thread should be locked so it can drift away into the archives.

B/F I have admired your posts for sometime now, I know your home city, I know the environment from which you came, I am married to someone from a somewhat similar background, I think I would probably know you just a bit if we were to ever meet (which as you so rightly point out up thread, we never will). Nevertheless, I have a couple of questions for you. I have noticed the style of your posts change with time, particularly the insertion of words like "folks, dude, gal" and others which don't really fit with someone who has converted from another native language. Your English has been near perfect from the outset, almost too perfect IME for someone converting from another native language. Maybe this is all as it is but I wonder at times if it is B/F the Russian woman writing these posts or…………………………..?

[pacifica]

Wow, such an intense topic!

The guy spent two years of his life fantasizing about the girl. We can't just say "forget about her", because she might be a scam, or because we think he is incapable of dealing with rejection. He is not going to forget about her just like that. And maybe, if he goes there, things will work out... He won't know, if he doesn't try. And just because he has mental problems, it does not mean that he can't have a relationship. The only advice I would give djgothman - be prepared for things not to work out. Even if she is not a scam, you just might not feel attracted to her, or find out something about her, or she might not like you, or what ever - it's still just a first date!

[OlgaH]

I find this thread hilarious. Mark left 5 pages ago and you are still discussing which disorder he has. You are discussing and making diagnosis of a person you never seen  

RussianWind,

It is sad that Mark left. I would rather agree that he should read more before to post, especially the section "Anything Goes".  He already honestly told his diagnosis so we don't make it, we just discussing the situation that took place.

[OlgaH]

    * Bipolar disorder affects approximately 5.7 million adult Americans, or about 2.6% of the U.S. population age 18 and older every year. (National Institute of Mental Health)
    * The median age of onset for bipolar disorder is 25 years (National Institue of Mental Health), although the illness can start in early childhood or as late as the 40's and 50's.
    * An equal number of men and women develop bipolar illness and it is found in all ages, races, ethnic groups and social classes.
    * More than two-thirds of people with bipolar disorder have at least one close relative with the illness or with unipolar major depression, indicating that the disease has a heritable component. (National Institute of Mental Health)
http://www.dbsalliance.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_statistics_bipolar

If it happens to me least of all I would like to meet or have people around me who would tell me how pitiful I'm...

[Gator]

frankly I think the thread should be locked so it can drift away into the archives.

I second the motion made by our illustrious Ozzie.

Maybe this is all as it is but I wonder at times if it is B/F the Russian woman writing these posts or…………………………..?

   I recall a couple of people questioning BluesFairy when she joined RWD a couple of years ago.  They asserted then that her writing style could not be that of a RW.  

Well maybe she is intelligent, very intelligent in written communication.  And maybe she has plenty of social interaction with North Carolinians so as to retain some of our vernacular.  

Well not that smart, because she does not yet know how to spell 'all of you' as 'yawl.' And with all the time she will spend raising her baby, in a couple of years she will write nothing more complex than "I can eat my soup faster than you."

[RussianWind]

So leave him alone. The less he needs is a public discussion about his health problems.

[groovlstk]

Wow it only took three days to run off the new member djgothman.
I wonder if that is a new record?
Some maybe proud some will have justifications. Its just shamefull!
I do believe what comes around goes around.
This is the main reason for losing members or people not posting, especially the women!

Before anything about Gothman's mental illness was mentioned, before anyone even commented on his Goth thing, the OP wrote this:

I can't say whether I'm going to be as active on here in leiu of some of the overly negative comments and opinions.

The "overly negative comments" came from from guys who gently warned him that he may be the victim of a scam agency.

[OlgaH]

Before anything about Gothman's mental illness was mentioned, before anyone even commented on his Goth thing, the OP wrote this:

The "overly negative comments" came from from guys who gently warned him that he may be the victim of a scam agency.

and even after that he was posting till personal insults towards him.

[Blues Fairy]

Maybe this is all as it is but I wonder at times if it is B/F the Russian woman writing these posts or…………………………..?

Despite the fact that you still think I'm a fake, I/O, you are one of the very few on RWD with whom I would gladly have a drink or two if we were ever to meet.  Yes, I write all my posts myself but perhaps my vocabulary has been somewhat influenced by my brilliant, highly educated and eloquent husband (oops, that was him writing the previous phrase )  As for the slang words - blame the ambiance; in some cases the word "dude" much better describes the character in question than the regular "man" or "guy" etc.  

I agree that this thread needs to be locked; it has obviously degenerated into a typical unstoppable self-righteous rant which certain people are so fond of.  Nothing new under the sun.

[Sculpto]

I have several comments to make which I will do in separate threads.

First though, I want to address GOB.  Your comments were so far beyond any sense of decency to be absolutely absurd.  Rick, I once invited you to a get together next time you came to San Francisco.  I am cancelling that invitation, right here in front of everyone.  

Why?

I would never, in all my life, have a personal association with someone that did what you did.  You have made BF appear a princess.  You should be ashamed of yourself.

What goes around comes around Rickyboy.  

[Sculpto]

There is a lot of use for this thread still, if, we can move away from the ongoing discussion of DJG and look at some of the other issues his correspondence bring up.  Despite the unpleasant debate, Mark has shown us the inner thought processes of what we usually calla keyboard romeo.

Yet, it turns out to be far more complex than the simple catch all phrase would suggest. 

[OlgaH]

groovlstk,

"messed-up drama queen, your miserable persona, He IS miserable and he revels in his misery, dude's feeble emotional state, poor and downtrodden, kid's brittle psyche, everyone deserves to be ridiculed" -  Is it not enough from one intelligent person to put a vulnerable person due to his diagnosis down? 

[I/O]

Despite the fact that you still think I'm a fake, I/O, you are one of the very few on RWD with whom I would gladly have a drink or two if we were ever to meet.  Yes, I write all my posts myself

The highlighted section was all that was required. Thanks.

I do not "still" think you are a fake nor did I ever imply that. For the first time, in this thread, I questioned whether or not it was you writing. If you read your early thread involvement here on RWD, I was not impressed with your repeated references to having experience with numerous men. I took a pretty sharp jab at you which was handled particularly well and you've held my respect ever since.

As for the other comment about actually being prepared to share a drink or two with me, I admit I am a bit blown away and stumped for words. That's a compliment of the highest order and yes if ever the opportunity arose for our respective families to meet I would gladly embark. Our door is open to only a select few but definitely to you and yours................Thankyou!!