A woman of your age

[Misha]

And I know an alcoholic who has spilled more beer than most everyone here has drunk.  [Does that sound like something Misha would say to Sculpto?]

Well, no it is not something that I would have said, but I like it  :evil:

[KenC]

 She said, "what if you old and can't have sex, and I young and beautiful, what you want I do?"  My reply will remain an enigma to this forum and will not be revealed..

Aww, come on Eric, did it involve batteries?
 
KenC
(I REALLY REALLY do not want to know)

[vwrw]

So we are back to the age gap debate...  Here is what I observe:

While dating:

She says, "The age difference is not an issue".
He says. "If she says it isn't an issue, that works for me."

1 year into the marriage:

She says, "I have financial security, the future is wide open, he takes good care of me."
He says, "I'm getting great sex with a young hottie, it's costing me a bit to keep her happy but it's worth it."

5 years into marriage:

She says, "I've got my green card, I've adjusted to the US, I've got my whole life ahead of me and he just wants to settle into a quiet retirement.  The sex is not up to my needs and there has to be something more for me out there somewhere"

He says. "I'm sensing some coldness and conflicts, maybe if I buy her some more jewelry or a new car this will make her happy"

10 years into marriage (if it lasts that long, and I have yet to see any age AM/RW age gap that has survived that long)

He says. "Thank God I have someone to care for me as my health deteriorates and who I can count on to be by my side.  Besides, the idea of going out and finding someone new to be by my side at this point is exhausting.

She says, "I have much of my life ahead of me.  The idea of caring for the needs of someone older is not how I envisioned my life.  That young guy at the spa who keeps eying me makes me think that I definitely have other options."

Sculpto is in stage 1.  Turboguy is in stage 2. their opinions are meaningless beyond the stage that they are in.  Their fault is in failing to listen to the advice of those who have gone through the later stages.

I knew my wife for three years before we married.  We were married for 3 years before our separation.  We have a 15 year age gap.  Although this is considered in the "acceptable" range, believe me, the longer you are together, the more the age gap becomes a factor.  I am not yet to the stage where she must worry about taking care of me, but the difference in experience and life goals has taken its toll.  If you want to learn about the eventual outcome of marriages that have lasted longer, take a look at KenC's posts.

The shelf life of an age gap relationship is something that must not be ignored.  If you are willing to accept that the limits of your marriage are based on the age difference and both of you understand and accept the eventualities. I'm willing to fully support you.  For example, Turboguy's marriage has a very obvious shelf life built in.  I think he understands this and accepts it.  That's fine with me. as long as he doesn't proclaim his as a success story.

I fullly recognize those relationships that are the exception to what I have written.  Unfortunately, 100% of those who are early in a relationship think they are the exception and the reality is that only maybe 10% at best truly are.

The age gap; issues hit me at 6 years, in subtle and unexpected ways,  KenC's issues hit him at the 10 year mark and the issues were more dramatic.  Ultimately, it will be an issue, but KenC has stated that the time spent together was worth the end result, and I will echo the same.

So those of you who are enteing into a new age gap relationship, I will refute your pie in the sky expectations, and try to discourage you in an effort to avoid you having to feel feel the pain of the ultimate loss, but ultimately it is your decision to make.  My goal is to provide you with some real life experience as opposed to the opinions of those who have not yet been through it and only throw out their rationalizations.

I find it is amazing when people who could not see what had been going on in their own relationships for years think that they are able to see what is going on in other people’s  relationships.   

How do you know what women engaged in age gap relationship think? If you really believe that you have a ability to read women’s thinking, why you did not use this ability to detect what was in your ex-wife’s head? 

Do not judge others or their relationship by yourself or by your relationship respectively.

[Sculpto]

This is where I would say that both of you are living in a bit of a fantasy world. Sure, some immigrants move to a new country and become successful immediately. Most don't. Most spend years working their way up, accepting jobs that they would never have done in their own countries, and only years later reach the level of success they had aspired to when arriving in their new country. What will both of you do if her expectations are not met? Even very capable people are not guaranteed success and many more capable people fail. How will she handle life in a new country if she does not excel?

So negative.  I don't deal in negative attitudes Misha.  Feeling negative brings negative to you.  Visualize happiness and prosperity and it comes to you.  I am currently experiencing this.  Most people in my shoes would be freaking out right now, worried about how they will pay the bills.  I, on the contrary, am taking off for a month knowing that the minute I return things will fall into my lap.  They always do.  No fantasy there.  

We are already taking concrete steps to insure that she is able to make a living when she gets here.  It is already starting to pay off, not in a big way, but a small revenue stream has already been created and has the potential to grow rather quickly once the technology is completed and she can aggressively pursue bigger and better revenue sources.  She is bringing her laptop to Thailand and I am sure we will be spending a lot of evenings further developing her site and making it ready to generate more revenue. The woman is exceptionally determined and motivated.  She has self taught herself quite passable English is under 15 months.  I have no reason to doubt her ability to achieve.  And quite frankly, given the current situation in Russia, and how well she has navigated that, she will be fine on this side of the ocean.  Her biggest obstacle is going to be learning how not to bulldoze people in California who are a lot more "sensitive" than Russians.

[Sculpto]

Superlative. 2012, gimme a break.

More superlatives. 2012, I like you. We've spoken by phone, but I didn't hear you speaking
in such certain tone. You further claim

Not criticizing your choices, 2012, but open-mindedness also applies to heeding advice, and not
just accepting risks.

Vaughn, we spoke once.  And sure there are moments when I have some doubts, 7 months apart is a long time.  But, there has been one really important consistency in her behavior during this time.  Any time we have gotten into a rough spot and I started to doubt her, she has sensed it, and come through to correct the situation with no prompting from me.  Sometimes it freaks me out that she understands what I am thinking.  

As to your last comment.. I have heard all the advice.  But I am not going to follow it because the essence of the advice is end the relationship.  I am not going to do that.  She is a great girl and i am lucky to be with her.  I have searched a long time to find someone I could say that about.  Her age simply does not represent a problem in the relationship the way some posters want it to be.  There are other issues to be sure, but, in our case I am pretty sure the age gap is an advantage.  

[Sculpto]

I would say you are more liberal than 99% of the people here.  Open minded?  You have quickly displayed some intransigent opinions about a variety of subjects, and if your open minded statement is true, that means that long ago you went to the top of a mountain and deliberated about all of the issues in the world with the world's best philosophers.

What do you think I was doing in Mexico for three years living on a mountainside with no electricity, phones, tvs, recorded music etc?

True.  This is not about sex, or at least sex should not be at the top of the list. 

Sex is more and less important to different people.  At 45 I feel no different than I did at 25.  I have however had more than enough adventures.  
 

And I know an alcoholic who has spilled more beer than most everyone here has drunk.  [Does that sound like something Misha would say to Sculpto?]

I know that might have come off as bragging but its just reality.  Living in the art world, doing a lot of travelling, being pretty much of a player back in the day.. I had a lot of opportunities and I didn't deprive myself.  With only one exception all of the women that were really important to me over the years are still my friends.  Several of them have been close advisors during this process because they know me way better than any of you do and have generously helped me to at least try to correct some of my selfish tendencies.

This gets back to KenC’s comment about adjusting to marriage with a foreign woman. In other words, your “A” may be able to do it; however, it will take years and years.

Sounds like fun.  And don't forget, I did bring a French woman over (who was a LOT more difficult than "A" and a lot less talented, funny how beauty can make a man be stupid), and, was the one who was adapting to another culture when I lived in Mexico and lived with a woman in "free union" which is basically a legal status not quite marriage but with more rights than domestic partners have in the USA.  
 

I would say you are more liberal than 99% of the people here.  Open minded?  You have quickly displayed some intransigent opinions about a variety of subjects, and if your open minded statement is true, that means that long ago you went to the top of a mountain and deliberated about all of the issues in the world with the world's best philosophers.

What do you think I was doing in Mexico for three years living on a mountainside with no electricity, phones, tvs, recorded music etc?

True.  This is not about sex, or at least sex should not be at the top of the list.  

Sex is more and less important to different people.  At 45 I feel no different than I did at 25.  I have however had more than enough adventures.  
  

And I know an alcoholic who has spilled more beer than most everyone here has drunk.  [Does that sound like something Misha would say to Sculpto?]

I know that might have come off as bragging but its just reality.  Living in the art world, doing a lot of travelling, being pretty much of a player back in the day.. I had a lot of opportunities and I didn't deprive myself.  With only one exception all of the women that were really important to me over the years are still my friends.  Several of them have been close advisors during this process because they know me way better than any of you do and have generously helped me to at least try to correct some of my selfish tendencies.

This sounds like the plot of a Michael Douglas film.  He is playing a divorced professor, boinking an incredibly beautiful and bright student 25 years younger, and explaining his elation and emotions to his friends who think he is losing touch.  Such has happened in the life of many a bright, curious girl.  It is a transient phase as part of their period of discovery and development.

And if I was the first man 20+ years older than her that she was involved with seriously I would be a lot more worried.  But, I am not.  She is intellectually very mature, emotionally somewhat less, but, the bottom line is she has made the commitment to me and takes marriage seriously.  She is not looking for a fling or a short term stepping stone, but, someone who will listen to her, support her vision and be good to her on her terms.  I fit that and she fits my list too.  So, I don't see what the problem is.

Eric, enjoy the 30 days in Thailand with your woman.  It sounds like a delightful trip, and if I had to go with a male companion  (perish the thought!) to Thailand, I could not think of a more interesting person from RWD than you because our objectives for a travel experience seem similar.  Besides having fun together, most important is to decide whether she is truly feeling what you are feeling.

Thanks Gator.  I think I will have the answer to the feelings question very quickly.  In fact, I am pretty sure I already do, the last few days have been very interesting and she has peeled away another layer of defenses that I have been butting up against for the better part of the last 7 months.  Sometimes she really freaks me out because just when I think she is being evasive or weird she will suddenly do something that completely erases my fears.  I think she is moderating our progress more carefully than I am.  

So.. my ongoing research into the land of smiles has really paid off.  I have found some amazing stuff in the last two days.  Figured out how to get off the beaten path.. WAY off the beaten path.  Interestingly, and not surprising, everything looks alot cheaper too.. instead of $35 for the elephants its more like $5, instead of $25 for a bungalow its $3.. I just hope she doesn't mind having monkeys for neighbors.  

[GQBlues]

No other issue makes for more hurt feelings than discussions about age gaps.

I think the problem is that there have been so many arguments on this particular topic that people immediately entrench, expecting disputes about value judgments and condemnation to follow.

We're all in the same boat, and a frank discussion about what guys can do to mitigate this issue (or simply prevent it from becoming a major issue) would be infinitely more valuable than what has been debated in the past.

groov-

You seem like a fairly level headed guy and I do appreciate what you stated above - if that in fact is your intent...

FWIW, it isn't so much people take offense to these types of discussions but rather the calls of a near-lyching mob that seem to crawl out of the wood work everytime a discussion like this kicks off, especially those armed with anecdotal inferences; that ussually steer these threads. You can easily see that in this thread.

FTR, as many old timers already know, I have a 19 year age difference in my marriage. I make no excuses, defense nor do I find myself justifying any part of my marriage to anyone. My marriage is approaching 5 happy years and still counting...

By now I'm sure you are aware I'm a fervent supporter of marrying women in your culture despite my Disneyland experience thus I would advice anyone against these affairs more so for the simple reason I simply don't feel RWs are any different than any other women available in everyone's neighborhood (To me that tells more about most of the men than it does the women. Let us not kid ourselves). Additionally, couple that with the obvious difficulties and challenges we all know so well.

Age-disparity is hardly the 800 pound gorilla in the room as I'm sure you're very aware.

But be that as it may, what objective matters do you have in mind that warrant further civil discussion beyond what had been repeatedly discussed ad nauseum before?

To Sculpto - why do you feel the need to defend anything you professed to be wholly confident in?

[BC]

To Sculpto - why do you feel the need to defend anything you professed to be wholly confident in?

..or repeat the same over and over even within the same post...  guess it's sorta like brainwashing yourself.

I do like the idea of some monk living at the top of the mountain having figured out all that ails the world below and praying for them.. kinda ruins it though when he comes down and starts preaching instead.

[Turboguy]

Personally, and I hope I don't ruffle too many feathers with this post, but I have to wonder if age gap isn't a cop out for some.   Oh, my relationship didn 't work out so it must have been the age gap.  I have a feeling that a fair number of the age gap train wrecks are really other problems in the relationship and people want to blame age gap rather than take in introspective look at their own shortcomings.

Personally, to me, when a GCW hooks on to a rich older guy and dumps him as soon as she gets her green card it isn't an age gap problem.  She was a GCW.

When someone is a one week wonder and marries a younger woman the problem isn't the age gap, it is that they didn't get to know each other well enough.

When people say age gap problems started to be noticeable in 2-5 years I can't think that anyone would change that much that quick that it wasn't a case of other problems that surfaced.

I think the real problem with an age gap marriage could be when someone really does reach the old and decrepit stage while the wife is fairly young and if a 45 year old guy marries a 23 year old woman when is he going to reach the old, decrepit stage? Maybe 80 or so.

Sculpto, I sincerely wish you a wonderful trip to Thailand and success in all you do.   Thailand is a great place to visit.  VWRW and I enjoyed ourselves tremendously there.

[groovlstk]

But be that as it may, what objective matters do you have in mind that warrant further civil discussion beyond what had been repeatedly discussed ad nauseum before?

GQ, part of my desire to see this topic discussed is selfish: I have an age gap of 15 years with my wife. Everything is great between us, but I'm not wearing blinders about the possibility that everything can change in 10 years. I can't imagine that I'm the only guy here who would benefit from the perspectives of KenC, Vaughan, Scott, BC, and others.

The folks in this thread who are most cocksure about how to deal with age gaps are not even living with their GFs/fiancees/spouses.

That tells me something.

And at the same time it pisses me off and activates my sarcasm gland - I'm tired of hearing platitudes like "age is just a number" and "everyone's different" and if someone uses Michael Douglas again as "proof" that women love older men, I will vomit.

[Gator]

GQ, part of my desire to see this topic discussed is selfish: I have an age gap of 15 years with my wife.

You hide it well!   

I sometimes get the feeling that those with a gap of 15 years think it nothing because the average AM:RW age gap based on one survey is 16 years IIRC.   Good to know that you too recognize that it could be a source of stress among the 100 other sources of stress confronting married couples. 

Because men like Turbo, KenC and I skew the numbers, we tend to be the lightning rod.  We are in a way like the canary in the mine. 

[Sculpto]

I find it is amazing when people who could not see what had been going on in their own relationships for years think that they are able to see what is going on in other people’s  relationships.   

How do you know what women engaged in age gap relationship think? If you really believe that you have a ability to read women’s thinking, why you did not use this ability to detect what was in your ex-wife’s head? 

Do not judge others or their relationship by yourself or by your relationship respectively.

 

[Sculpto]

GQ, good point.  Though, I don't really see myself as defending as much as sharing.  But I could certainly be wrong about that.

BC.. I am not preaching.. I don't promote my way of life for everyone else.  But I do wish to provide a contrast to what is far too often a very narrow view that permeates this forum.  Far too many people seem to think there is only one way to do things.  If you remember back to my argument with Possom way back when.. my point then, and now, is the world is a multi dimensional place with as many different ways of doing things, seeing things and being as there are people, languages and cultures.  What works for me probably won't work for the next guy and what worked from someone over "there" probably isn't going to work for me.  The advice given on the forum would be a lot more useful if people tried to put on each others shoes and view the different issues from a more comprehensive perspective instead of being so freaking predictable most of the time.  

Thanks Turbo.. I think it will be fantastic!  

[Misha]

Personally, to me, when a GCW hooks on to a rich older guy and dumps him as soon as she gets her green card it isn't an age gap problem.  She was a GCW.

This reasoning overlooks one thing. If I were a GCW, who would I target? Yes, I might look at young attractive men, but I would realize that I would have a great deal of competition. Rather, I would seek out the oldest and the most naive gentleman out there. I would look for the man twenty, nay thirty, years older than me spouting off about how he believes that RW are more traditional and family oriented than that God-awful AW. I would look for a man willing to rationalize every one of my caprices as "cultural" and who truly did believe that RW are not interested in a good looking man  :evil: I would woo him with kind words about how RW prefer older men, and seeing if he will fall for my insistence that all RW will insist that a man be generous, with me of course defining "greedy" as not buying every toy and trinket that I spot....

[groovlstk]

You hide it well!   

That's because unlike most guys here, I look 10 years younger than my physical age. 

[Gator]

I have a feeling that a fair number of the age gap train wrecks are really other problems in the relationship and people want to blame age gap rather than take in introspective look at their own shortcomings.

Excellent point, something I have mentioned yet never expressed as clearly as you just did.

While an age gap adds one bullet in the chamber for Russian roulette, there are many other possible bullets.

I think the real problem with an age gap marriage could be when someone really does reach the old and decrepit stage while the wife is fairly young and if a 45 year old guy marries a 23 year old woman when is he going to reach the old, decrepit stage? Maybe 80 or so.

The grace of God will determine that.  Us men tend to be susceptible to dementia and the like.  Reminds me of a joke:

Last night, my kids and I were sitting in the living room and I said to them, “I never want to live in a vegetative state, dependent on some machine and fluids from a bottle. If that ever happens, just pull the plug.”

They got up, unplugged my computer, and threw out my wine.
 

[KenC]

Groov,
Michale Douglas was looking pretty rough around the edges a few weeks ago on Letterman.  More and more like Kirk.  While Katherine Zeta is  still smoking in her cell phone commercials.  Will they last?  Who the hell knows?  But he is certainly paying the price for trying.  Come to think of it, I did have only a sprinkle of distingushing grey when I met Lena.  
KenC

[Gator]

This reasoning overlooks one thing. If I were a GCW, who would I target? .... I would seek out the oldest and the most naive gentleman out there. I would look for the man twenty, nay thirty, years older than me spouting off about how he believes that RW are more traditional and family oriented than that God-awful AW. I would look for a man willing to rationalize every one of my caprices as "cultural" and who truly did believe that RW are not interested in a good looking man  :evil: I would woo him with kind words about how RW prefer older men, and seeing if he will fall for my insistence that all RW will insist that a man be generous, with me of course defining "greedy" as not buying every toy and trinket that I spot....

You left out the part about death by a 1000 BJs.  

[Misha]

You left out the part about death by a 1000 BJs.  

That would be resolved by hiding his Viagra  :evil:

[KenC]

Gator,
Good one!

An older man was sitting on a park bench sobbing.  When asked what his problem was, he replied, "I am a foolish old man and married a young beautiful woman from Russia."  "Oh, so she doesn't love you any more?"

"No, she loves me to death."

"Oh, so she must be unfaithful to you?"

"No, she loves only me and would never cheat."

He was asked "Oh, so you cannot satisfy her any more?"

"No" he answers, "we have the best sex in world together!"

The old man was asked, "So you married a young beautiful Russian that loves you, is faithful to you and gives you great sex?  Why in the hell are you crying?"

"I forgot where I live!"

[LEGAL]

I find it is amazing when people who could not see what had been going on in their own relationships for years think that they are able to see what is going on in other people’s  relationships.   

How do you know what women engaged in age gap relationship think? If you really believe that you have a ability to read women’s thinking, why you did not use this ability to detect what was in your ex-wife’s head? 

Do not judge others or their relationship by yourself or by your relationship respectively.

VWRW Very well said 

[tim 360]

Gggeeezzz Gator and KenC, I'm still laughing so hard I can barely type.  Usually these age threads are all the same but you have elevated this one to a better level with your poignant humor.

Sculpto Babe--You are a man in love or something.  And a man in love is like a horse (not mule) with blinders on and he only can see part of the picture; usually the parts he wants to see.  I've seen it a thousand times before and a few times I have been that horse with blinders on.  No big deal.  Take your trip to Thailand and have a great time...get to know each other a little better.  And maybe do a K1 when you get back and marry the girl and see how things go.  You would not be satisfied with less.

One thing is certain--that you will know alot more in a year than you know right now and I say that in a kind way.  Bon Voyage Sculpto and good luck!  Now where did I park my car?

[remiel6]

Ken that is awesome !!!!! thanks for making me laugh. 

[GQBlues]

GQ, part of my desire to see this topic discussed is selfish: I have an age gap of 15 years with my wife. Everything is great between us, but I'm not wearing blinders about the possibility that everything can change in 10 years.

Well, with all due respect to the gentlemen you stated above, if the state of your marriage changed in 10 years I seriously believe those chaps will all be too senile to help, groov....   Fat chance you'd get any reprieve there...

Maybe it's just me but are you saying that maybe laying out other people's marriage-ending problems today will somehow educate you in what to do with yours in case things go awry in the future? Somehow that doesn't sound right in more than one front so please correct me if I'm wrong...

[Vaughn]

Maybe it's just me but are you saying that maybe laying out other people's marriage-ending problems today will somehow educate you in what to do with yours in case things go awry in the future? Somehow that doesn't sound right in more than one front so please correct me if I'm wrong...

Far be it for me to speak for groov, but with an almost 13 year gap here, I find these threads
very beneficial in that it's never too late nor too "comfy" to consider periodic maintenance to
prevent rather than cure. If there are tendencies (called judgments by some here) I damn well
want to know about and understand them. Changes happen even among older folks, the stages
don't quit, ever.

Three elderly men are sitting on a park bench. The first one says "You know what, boys? I sure
do miss being able to take a good regular leak in the morning..."  The second guy replies, "Every
morning at 7 sharp - I take a good healthy leak...I just wish I could take a good regular dump."
The third man chimes in, "Every morning at 7 I take a good regular leak, and at 8 I take a nice
healthy dump - I just wish I could wake up before 9."