Anti-USA propaganda ? Or just plain sick...

[Rubicon]

blah, blah, blah, Rubicon.  I don't know everything, but it's apparent I do know more about the issue than do you.

Compare Russian GDP to the GDP of any Western industrialized nation. 

Then come back and tell me what a rich country Russia is.

Does Russia have rich individuals?  Of course, and they should be stepping up.  But on a whole, the nation is not yet wealthy.

You would like others to believe that you know more about the issue than I do, or others posting here, but the fact is that you focus on one microscopic area which might maybe be improved while ignoring the glaring and overwhelming facts about how much could be done to improve the plight of the orphans living in Russia.  in your zealous determination to point your finger at the USA and criticize and stir up anti American sentiment you ignore the hundreds of thousands of orphans which become street children and perish in Russia.

the wealth of a nation is not just a statistic like GDP, the wealth of a nation is actually the wealth of their people--the content and character of the people of Russia, their ethics or lack of ethics, their true belief and respect for a higher power than themselves, their belief or disbelief in liberty, their respect or disrespect for private property rights (Shell Oil found out the hard way that Russia does not respect property rights--which is why so many countries in the west are afraid to invest or do business in Russia), the honesty and integrity of government officials, or lack thereof.

all of the natural resources and history and architecture are there in Russia, waiting to be developed, waiting to enrich the people of the nation.

why do you think that countries like China and Germany and USA prosper??  Germany was completely crushed after WWII, in every sense of the word; occupied by four world powers who were intent on humiliating them as much as possible.  yet they rose like a Phoenix from the ashes.  the high speed train going from Moscow to St. Petersburg--made in Germany.  the cars which Russians covet so much--BMW and Mercedes.

why does one nation prosper and another flounder??  corruption as you know has a lot to do with it.  Ikea has put all development in Russia on hold because every time they tried to open a store the power was shut off or they were hit by bogus inspection after bogus inspection, all because in principal they refused to pay bribes.  why does President Mevdevev not step in and do something about this??  he says he wants to stop corruption??

why do you stir up acrimony on a forum with mostly American posters, instead of writing letters to Mr. Putin and President Mevdevev??  I believe you speak and write Russian fluently.  Supposedly Putin has a slush fund with billions of dollars in it.  whether or not that is really true, I do not care to find out or know.  what I do know is that if the leadership in Russia really wanted to bring attention to problems of orphans, and ask those wealthy enough to help out, overnight their plight could be improved.  Russian people have proved to be clever hardworking and resourceful when united behind a common cause (WWII), there is no reason they could not be united behind the cause of helping children to have food shelter medical care and ultimately life.  especially when you consider that Russia has a declining population rate.  or why don't you join a christian charity which helps Russian orphans, and post a link to that??  that is what I am going to do.

[Rubicon]

this charity claims that 100 percent of donation will go to help Russian orphans and homeless Russian children:

www.russianorphan.org/about_us

 Most shelters for homeless children in Russia receive no regular state support. They rely solely on private donations to feed the children that they support. Russian orphanages lack funding for basic medicine and hygiene items. Used to canned food diet little orphans rarely see fresh fruits, vegetables, meat or fish. All children have the right to grow up and develop to their full potential in a safe and secure family environment, free from poverty and exploitation. They deserve the opportunity to go to school, have access to clean water, nutritional food, basic medical care and shelter. Russian orphans, through no fault of their own, are trapped by their environment of poverty, poor nutrition and illiteracy. Give them hope for a life that is free of starvation, negligence and physical and emotional pain! Sponsor an orphan now and help break the cycle of poverty and desperation!


you can sponsor a child for as little as $35.00 per month.  the website is written in English, Russian and German; and has excellent information about their references and various resources for helping these children.  

Your sponsorship money will be used for food and medicine for your selected child. We encourage e-mail communication. Your e-mails will be translated to the child and you will receive a responce. You may send the child gifts, call and come to visit in person. Your credit card will be charged the selected amount monthly. You may cancel your subscription anytime through PayPal (History => Subscriptions) or ask us. Please contact us if you have any questions


"Angels rejoice in heaven when just one soul is saved!!"

[Rubicon]

from the website listed above:

 В России более 4 миллионов сирот и беспризорников. Большинство из них живут на вокзалах, в подвалах, на чердаках и просто на улице и отчаянно нуждаются в помощи. Очень немногим из этих несчастных детей повезло попасть в приюты, хотя и там часто не хватает самого необходимого, нет горячей воды, душа, туалета. По статистике только один из десяти российских беспризорников имеет шанс вырасти и стать полноценным членом общества. Остальные гибнут из-за алкоголя и наркотиков, совершают самоубийства, становятся жертвами преступлений. Множество талантливых людей в России пытаются помочь сиротам выжить. Но в обнищавшей России сил и средств в бюджете совершенно недостаточно, чтобы обеспечить всем детям улицы хотя бы минимальные условия для выживания. Дайте этим детям надежду на жизнь без голода и страданий, надежду на будущее. Посетите текущие проекты или проекты на один зубок, и увидите, что даже $20 долларов окажет реальную помощь детям!

Спонсируйте ребенка
Как вернуть улыбку на лицо этого ребенка? Он всего лишь один из бесчисленного множества обездоленных российских детей, не имеющих ни дома, ни любящих родителей, и часто не имеющих даже еды. Большинство этих детей страдают от психических или физических заболеваний. Эти дети тоже могли бы улыбаться и смотреть на мир глазами, полными надежд и ожиданий. Но их судьбы сломаны, их жизнь - это череда бесконечных разочарований, лишений, жестоких невзгод и страданий. Организация по правам человека была шокирована уровнем социальной незащищенности российских сирот и беспризорников. Спонсируйте ребенка - Вы можете изменить жизнь ребенка к лучшему и вернуть улыбку на его лицо.
 Объявления
Наша новая страница: www.iOrphan.org и е-мэйл: info@iOrphan.org
 
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[BC]

in your zealous determination to point your finger at the USA and criticize and stir up anti American sentiment you ignore the hundreds of thousands of orphans which become street children and perish in Russia.

....

why do you stir up acrimony on a forum with mostly American posters, instead of writing letters to Mr. Putin and President Mevdevev?? 

Rubicon,

This is RWD not RWDUSA or USARWD.  No geographical boundaries are drawn and a look at http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=mm will show participants from around the world, each with his/her viewpoint to share.  This topic is about an incident that happened in the US relating to a child adopted in RU.  Has nothing to do with your fear of a Chinese invasion or soldiers who eat hot sauce and take cold showers.  At Redstone Arsenal we used to get beer, lawnchairs and sit outside our huts watching Marines chase skunks through the drainage pipes to show their manliness.. was good for laughs but quite irrelevant here, after all adults can usually make choices.

Your links to the organization helping orphanages in RU are appreciated and worthy of consideration. Some of the info appears to be a bit outdated though and I would prefer results of their financial audits/statements be available to build confidence in their 100% claims before making a commitment.   Do you have experience to share regarding this org?  Maybe know someone that could be invited here to participate?

[Rubicon]

BC,

I invited Kiril (the owner of iOrphan) to join this discussion thread and answer some questions.  hopefully he will show up soon and we can ask him some appropriate questions and maybe he will also contribute an opinion about the adoption issues of USA and what can be done to improve relations with Russian Federation.

[Rubicon]

Quit idolizing an official to lead them strictly by the image he's a representative of the good ol' soviet steel mentality but instead elect a person who'll scrap the very idea and put his interest in the nation's/citizen's best interest. That'll be a good start.

But whatever, it's their country. As Rubicon mentioned above, if they can save a month's worth of salary to get an iPhone for status symbol as a society despite the on-going conditions in these orphanages, who the heck knows what Russians want for Russians in Russia as a whole.

BC-

The word 'hesitant' is likely an understatement. Considering the talks went for 5 rounds suggest that maybe there is some heavy governmental involvement being levied. You mentioned earlier that Italy had finalized their agreement with Russia and appeared to be a model for handling these adoption regulations. Can you dig in for some details within their agreement?

My speculation with the talks between the US and Russia is this...(stress on speculation):

Russia wants a signed assurance from the DOS to assume full responsibility for the child/ren's welfare in the event the relationship with the adoptive parent/s goes awry. That the incident of the boy being sent back to Moscow never happens again.

From the DOS side that seem daunting. For starters, a myriad of programs will need to be launched to monitor the situation out of each and every family to insure things stay 'normal'. That would literally mean they'll need to infringe on these families lives and privacy ritualistically. If something happens with the adoptive parents, then the US become fully responsible for the child's keep.

A congressional passing of another social funding bill that can cost in the hundreds of millions, if not billions, each year.

From the Russian side, if the agreement is somehow signed and ratified, they for all intent and purposes release untold numbers of children deemed at the lowest scale of adoptable state with gawd-knows-what-condition. Screening will be nothing but a thing of the past. In essence, insuring Russia that the US government takes responsibility of it's (Russian) own problems.

Sort of like Cuba putting their ex-cons on boats heading for Miami, or Russian convicts being labeled as Jews seeking refugee status in the USA. Both of these are factual, too.

+1
unfortunately this is what I am afraid of...that Russia wants to give the USA very damaged special needs children and than just wash their hands of them.  let the good 'ol USA pay for their expensive healthcare and welfare; just like we already pay for school medical care etc for 12 million plus illegal Mexicans.

[erudite]

I guess that is why Americans pay taxes. To let the illegals have more rights and benefits than a taxpaying citizen and to support a Royal Lineage Congress, Senate and Government Bureaucrate group who never has to worry about anything but collecting perks, paychecks.  They are totally exempt from the same laws and standards the rest of us are required to adhere to as a regular voting citizen.

[Rubicon]

Rubicon,

This is RWD not RWDUSA or USARWD.  No geographical boundaries are drawn and a look at http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=mm will show participants from around the world, each with his/her viewpoint to share.  This topic is about an incident that happened in the US relating to a child adopted in RU.  Has nothing to do with your fear of a Chinese invasion or soldiers who eat hot sauce and take cold showers.  At Redstone Arsenal we used to get beer, lawnchairs and sit outside our huts watching Marines chase skunks through the drainage pipes to show their manliness.. was good for laughs but quite irrelevant here, after all adults can usually make choices.

Your links to the organization helping orphanages in RU are appreciated and worthy of consideration. Some of the info appears to be a bit outdated though and I would prefer results of their financial audits/statements be available to build confidence in their 100% claims before making a commitment.   Do you have experience to share regarding this org?  Maybe know someone that could be invited here to participate?

I looked at that link and the overwhelming majority of members are from USA.  of course opinions from around the world are very welcome, just do not expect Americans to not defend themselves when being attacked with anti american spitwads.

as I pointed out above (I mispelled hot as "how" sorry about that, hopefully people could tell what I was trying to write) many of the Russian orphanages cannot afford hot water to begin with, so that is a non issue in my opinion.  would I force my children to take cold showers or to eat hotsauce??  personally no I would not force them;  but when we go camping they would be encouraged to swim in cold rivers and lakes to experience that.  also, I think boys will eat hot sauce or just about anything if challenged by their peers.  hopefully you have a sense of humour and can see that was my point about this whole Dr. Phil affair.  I personally do not think either cold showers or hot sauce qualifies as abuse.  but if the authorities say it is, than I am sure that the parent changed her methods.

[Rubicon]

Report Documents Brutal Treatment in Russian Orphanages
Thousands of children suffer neglect and cruelty in state institutions
December 15, 1998
The abuse in orphanages cannot simply be attributed to Russia's economic crisis. The problem of scarce resources does not justify the appalling treatment children receive at the hands of the state. It wouldn't take more money for Russia to change these policies immediately.
Kathleen Hunt Author of the Human Rights Watch report Thousands of Russian children abandoned to state orphanages are exposed to appalling levels of cruelty and neglect, according to a 213-page report released in Moscow by Human Rights Watch. The report is a year-long investigation accompanied by a series of powerful color photographs providing further evidence of malign neglect and inhuman treatment.

Entitled "Abandoned to the State: Cruelty and Neglect in Russian Orphanages," the report documents that "children in state custodial institutions are deprived of basic human rights at every stage of their lives."

"The abuse in orphanages cannot simply be attributed to Russia's economic crisis," said Kathleen Hunt, author of the Human Rights Watch report. "The problem of scarce resources does not justify the appalling treatment children receive at the hands of the state. It wouldn't take more money for Russia to change these policies immediately."

Hunt said that many of these children do not need to be institutionalized at all, but could be better cared for at home, or in foster homes, at considerably less expense. "The population of these orphanages is far too high and it's growing," said Hunt, noting that about 200,000 children live in state institutions in Russia.  now close to 800,000

Beginning with infancy, orphans classified as disabled are segregated into "lying down" rooms of the nation's 252 "baby houses," where they are changed and fed but are bereft of stimulation and lacking in medical care.

Those who are labeled retarded or "oligophrenic" (small-brained), face another grave and consequential violation of their rights around the age of four. At that time, a state commission diagnoses them as "ineducable," and warehouses them for life in "psycho-neurological internats." After this diagnosis, it is virtually impossible for an orphan to appeal the decision. According to official statistics, some 30,000 children are confined to these locked and isolated institutions, which are little better than prisons.

The orphans may be restrained in cloth sacks, tethered to furniture, denied stimulation and are sometimes left to lie half-naked in their own filth. In both "baby houses" and "internats," children may be administered powerful sedatives without medical orders.

In a throwback to the abhorrent abuse in Soviet psychiatric institutions, orphans and institution staff also told Human Rights Watch of cases when children who tried to run away were sent to a psychiatric hospital for punishment or treatment.

Not only disabled orphans suffer violations of their rights in Russian state orphanages, according to Human Rights Watch. Even 'normal' abandoned children---whom the state evaluates as intellectually capable of functioning on a higher level---may be beaten, locked in freezing rooms for days at a time, or sexually abused.

Public humiliation was one of the forms of punishment recorded by Human Rights Watch in interviews with children from three different regions of Russia. "The teacher would punish children by bringing everyone into the classroom, and then making the ones who did something wrong get undressed and stand in front of the open window when it was very cold," according to an orphan interviewed in St. Petersburg. "Several children would be stripped and have to stand like that while the others had to watch...as a threat," the orphan said.

Official statistics indicate that children have been abandoned to the state at a rate of 113,000 for the past two years. This figure is up dramatically from 67,286 in 1992.

Human Rights Watch points out the wide variation among state institutions and cites an independent program in one psycho-neurological internat that has made remarkable progress with disabled children.

Among its recommendations to Russian authorities and international community, the human rights organization calls for the state to "immediately take steps to end the gross neglect, and the physical and psychological abuse by staff working in the custodial institutions of the three ministries involved: Health, Education, and Labor and Social Development."

The report also urges the state to develop humane alternatives to huge custodial institutions by reallocating existing resources to more family-based care.

The photographs accompanying the Human Rights Watch report are available through the Saba Photo Agency in New York, telephone 212-477-7722 or through the photographer, Kate Brooks, in Moscow at (M) 7095-763-6603, or (P) 7095-203-4610.

Send this News to: *
  
Please enter email addresses separated by commas.

and to add insult to injury Russian orphans have the word "orphan" stamped onto their passports.

[Rubicon]

...

[possum]

Rubicon,

An old article from the Yeltsin regime hardly reflects the realities of today.. While the number of children "left without parental care" is still shamefully high, the situation around them has improved a great deal since the 1990's.. There are far less "problem" orphanages now, and more children are being adopted domestically.. Foster families and guest families have been introduced and now account for a good 20-30% of children leaving orphanages. I'm sure as the economy improves and more awareness is raised, the situation will continue to get better.. So, if you care about the children so much you better pray for Russia to become an economic superpower.

[BC]

Rubicon,

No one here is debating that the conditions in RU orphanages needs attention and a lot of it.  The reports you quoted are quite old, but it would be interesting to see if there were improvements over the years.

Lets not forget that change takes time, a lot of it and even more money.

Take the reunification of Germany after the fall of the SU. At a cost of 100 billion per year x 20 years there are still problems with reunification.  It seems questionable even now if the eastern portion could support itself once government support dries out.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,373639,00.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/11/07/us-germany-wall-idUSTRE5A613B20091107

All this for a population of 16 million..

I lived in Germany through a large portion of this transition and am confident that the reunification was likely the most organized and well thought out transition possible with practically every nook and cranny, even orphanages getting attention.

.. but as I said, still questionable if the east, even today, can stand on it's own legs and not simply crumble without support.

Now consider RU with a population of 140 million, in the exact same position as East Germany back then.. without another country to support and invest in the basic necessities of life...  Was there anyone in 1991 standing at the RU border carrying a suitcase of support worth 20 Trillion? (proportionate to the East German support / population) Obviously not.

Now let me pose one question...  Is the rate of improvements as it concerns orphanages in RU unacceptable?

Anyone who traveled to RU during this period will have noted the living conditions of most of the population.  I would consider it 'bare necessities', conditions that certainly were not comparable to life in the west.  If one were to have built thousands of new orphanages with all the attention and care given to orphans in the industrialized west, I believe many parents would have considered this an option to give their children a better life instead of living through a very difficult period.  Fortunately, over the last 10 years I have seen living conditions improve quite dramatically.  No, not up to standards we are used to but the little luxuries in life are quite common.  From empty streets to those full of cars, from sweltering apartments to an air conditioner on practically every balcony.  I'm quite confident that a RU father and mother who have to decide to give their child up think long and hard before doing so (many orphans have living parents).

This post is not to distract discussions on this topic, but instead to provide a bit of contrast to our western way of thinking and quest for instant satisfaction.  Surely there are many, many areas where improvements are needed across FSU, but lets not forget they seem to be managing fairly well and we in the west do need to realize that change takes time measured in decades and not years, especially if we expect them to do it on their own without external support.

It would be encouraging if your friend could participate here.  I would hope he could report at least of some improvements.  Many of the more recent reports do seem to indicate that conditions have improved, due both to government and charity work, but that children receiving the basics of life still have problems with emotional needs that were / are not being met.  If there is one ingredient of life a child needs are hugs and emotional support..  I can sort of understand the dilemma of caregivers' hesitation to bond emotionally with children, much like nurses and doctors in hospitals hesitate to bond with their patients.

Another question that would be quite relevant is if adoption of children by domestic parents in RU is on the rise.. That would also be quite encouraging and support some of my assertions above.

Bottom line, we should not be sitting here wagging our fingers at the past and at someone else, but instead determine if things are improving or not, and if we can, chip in and help a few children in need.

[BC]

Possum,

Was drafting when you posted. That is indeed encouraging news.

Rubicon,

An old article from the Yeltsin regime hardly reflects the realities of today.. While the number of children "left without parental care" is still shamefully high, the situation around them has improved a great deal since the 1990's.. There are far less "problem" orphanages now, and more children are being adopted domestically.. Foster families and guest families have been introduced and now account for a good 20-30% of children leaving orphanages. I'm sure as the economy improves and more awareness is raised, the situation will continue to get better.. So, if you care about the children so much you better pray for Russia to become an economic superpower.

[possum]

Possum,

Was drafting when you posted. That is indeed encouraging news.

I think I may have mixed up some numbers there.. I lost the link with regional adoption stats, and it seems to have disappeared from Google.. Oh well.. 20% seems low for foster family placements given the fact that those kids are considered to be the responsibility of the government and receive a much bigger allowance ($300 a month vs. nothing for adopted children). I know of several families who have 'adopted' children this way, and they seem to be doing ok. The guest family program is also on the rise.. It gives children the opportunity to spend weekends and summer holidays with a real family instead of at the orphanage..

[GQBlues]

Rubicon,

An old article from the Yeltsin regime hardly reflects the realities of today.. While the number of children "left without parental care" is still shamefully high, the situation around them has improved a great deal since the 1990's.. There are far less "problem" orphanages now, and more children are being adopted domestically.. Foster families and guest families have been introduced and now account for a good 20-30% of children leaving orphanages. I'm sure as the economy improves and more awareness is raised, the situation will continue to get better.. So, if you care about the children so much you better pray for Russia to become an economic superpower.

Citation please...

[possum]

Citation please...

What part of that sentence do you need a citation for?

[GQBlues]

What part of that sentence do you need a citation for?

Whichever one is most conveniently available for you....

Russian Ophangae Opportunity Fund reports a different version than you. Andrew Williams is the principle of this fund drive. Let him know, according to you they can pack up tents because their concerns are over.

In Russia, this is far from being true; at the moment there is simply no alternative to institutional care for the majority of orphaned children. In the long term, ROOF's main goal is, of course, to work ourselves out of existence. Optimistically, this could take 30 or 40 years-even with an economic upturn. Some older orphanage personnel are now working with their third generation of institutionalised children -- social problems run in the family and die hard.

Reported December 10, 2010. Unless things changed there in the past 20+ days..

What it all comes down to is basically this...these children have a 99.96 percent chance for a better life because of US adoption. SHOW me anything - ANYTHING anyone in Russia, government or otherwise that had done that much improvement, or close to it, in these children's lives.

[BC]

Maybe something like this as source?  Would take a native speaker to research a bit deeper for some recent statistics and trends..

http://en.rian.ru/society/20101018/161000538.html

The number of Russian children adopted by foreigners has almost halved over the past five years, an official with the Russian Ministry of Education and Science said on Monday.

The number of children adopted by Russians, however, increased by 27% over the same period, said Alina Levitskaya, the director of the ministry's department for education and social adaptation of children.

[GQBlues]

Then I am enlightened BC. But give me hard facts. Not a newspaper article written in the aftermath of the April 2010 incident. After all, I gave you DOS information when you asked for one.

If you can, then there's a need to let Andrew Williams and everyone like him know they're full of phystht because these children are all in good hands and doing just fine by themselves in Russia. That's a heck of a LOT better than the silly 99.96 success rate these children ever get in the US, eh?

I, for one, would love to see all adoption from Russia be completely terminated. It's their own freaking problem to begin with, no?

[possum]

Whichever one is most conveniently available for you....

OK, I have found some recent stats, but you'll have to translate them yourself..

"На 1 января 2009 г. в России число детей-сирот и детей, оставшихся без попечения родителей, составляло 681 301 ребенок, в том числе в условиях институционализации (система учреждений для детей-сирот и детей, оставшихся без попечения родителей) – 151 771 ребенок (на учете в региональных банках данных), что составляет 22% в общей численности детей.

На воспитании в семьях состояли 529 530 детей (78%), в том числе:
 – под опекой и попечительством – 331 407 детей (без учета добровольно переданных родителями под опеку – 48 001), в том числе посторонние граждане – 53 437 – 14%;
 – в приемной семье – 55 326 детей (число приемных семей – 32 646);
 – на усыновлении – 142 797 детей, в том числе в иностранных семьях – 42596 – 30%;
 – на других формах – 5363 детей (число патронатных семей – 3 165). До 1 сентября 2008 г. эти дети числились в контингенте детского дома.

При этом субъекты РФ указали итоговую численность детей, выявленных и учтенных на конец 2008 г., – 670 469 детей."

http://www.rian.ru/spravka/20100429/227818989.html

As you can see, as of Jan 1, 2009 78% of children "without parental care" were placed with adoptive/foster families and "other forms of care", not readily translatable.. Out of which 30% were adopted, roughly 14% were taken in by "foster families", roughly 14% were placed in the care of their relatives and 14% more were placed with "strangers" (meaning no blood relation to the child).

[GQBlues]

That's your citation? That's the equivalent of anyone giving you Fox News as a citation source. That's the best you and BC can do combined? LOL, surely you jest...considering the media as they are in Russia these days.

[GQBlues]

C'mon....are you both still Googling? WTF? With that much dramatic change, these information ought to be more than just a passing, silent revelations, no? This should be in the same grand scale as the fall of the Berlin Wall!!!! My goodness! The Russian government, and it's people, are doing things for each other and one another!!!

That's grander than the fall of SU, as far as I'm concerned.

[possum]

That's your citation? That's the equivalent of anyone giving you Fox News as a citation source. That's the best you and BC can do combined?

Is the Ministry of Education a good enough source for you?

http://www.usynovite.ru/statistics/2008/

Or how about Rosstat?

http://www.gks.ru/doc_2009/deti09_rus.pdf (see page 108)

[possum]

C'mon....are you both still Googling? WTF?

Still not learning Russian so you can see for yourself?

[GQBlues]

Still not learning Russian so you can see for yourself?

Nope. I could give a rat's arse to learn Russian as it's of little use for me...