RW with children: pros and cons

[Boethius]

I never spanked my kids.  They're all honour students, polite and respectful. 

I'm 100% positive they will never rob anyone.

[BillyB]

There seems to be way too many extremes being played here. BillyB's hypothetical sampling of kids gone bad is a good example. Adolescent criminals commit these crimes not because they lacked spanking when growing up. They became what they are because of abusive parents and/or sheer neglect.

I see you added that after I posted. Some people believe spanking produces criminals. I believe neglect produces more criminals as in sparing the rod spoils the child. Kids will always test and push their parents. Some kids back off with words. Others need time out. Others need spanking. Neglecting necessary disipline or stopping short of what's necessary can allow the child to grow out of control to the point society deals with them in various ways. My hypothetical scenario isn't extreme. One million people in jail in this country at any given day and millions of others have served time. Problem people are not as rare as some may think. In some cities such as Flint, Michigan, 1 out of 45 people living there was the victim of violent crime.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43158398/ns/business-us_business/t/crime-down-these-cities-are-still-dangerous/
 

So where exactly did you write in the original post about the thieves beating anybody up? Thieves generally want to steal. If you give them what they want, they generally leave quickly.
 

 
My original hypothetical scenario spoke of kids beating up on a woman to get her purse.  I'll agree with you that most thieves want to leave quickly but what if they laugh in your face for helping them pull your wife's purse off her arm and continue to be violent to her in an attempt to add insult to injury? Can most men at this forum without hesitation come to the defense of their woman using physical means if necessary? So far, not.

 

Cell phones + 911 works wonders in Canada   
 

 
While your woman is getting beat, you choose to call police and give them directions. Then what will you do? Watch until the police will come?

 
Sure I'm presenting hypothetical situations but these things happen. Reality is stranger than fiction. I've seen crime happen in the FSU almost everytime I've been there. I certainly didn't expect to see in the FSU a few pre teens chase an old man down the street hitting and throwing sticks at him. I certainly didn't expect the lack of reactions from those walking down the street. Nobody cared. Will you at least care for your girl...before the police arrive?
 

I never spanked my kids.  They're all honour students, polite and respectful. 

I'm 100% positive they will never rob anyone.

 
Spanking doesn't make your kids bad. I've been spanked and my life has been a lot cleaner than most but I don't credit spanking for my good behavior.
 
Nothing against you Boethius but most mothers think their kids are wonderful and can't do wrong. I have a cousin named Jimmy. Jimmy is a logger. Jimmy is big and strong and likes to fight. He also gets in trouble with the law occasionally. Jimmy's mom called my mom one day and told her the police arrested Jimmy for getting in a knife fight. Jimmy's mom said "Jimmy was trying to stop a knife fight, not participate in one. He's a good kid and people don't know Jimmy like I know Jimmy." I told my mom she should have told her "You don't know Jimmy like people know Jimmy".
 
If kids want to be bad, parents rarely know what they're doing.

[Boethius]

If kids want to be bad, parents rarely know what they're doing.

Wrong.  If parents want to be blind, they don't know what their kids are doing.  I am not blind, and I know what my kids do. 

You just don't want to admit that yet another of your subjective "rules of the world" may not be the best approach.

[pitbull]

Nothing against you Boethius but most mothers think their kids are wonderful and can't do wrong. I have a cousin named Jimmy. Jimmy is a logger. Jimmy is big and strong and likes to fight. He also gets in trouble with the law occasionally. Jimmy's mom called my mom one day and told her the police arrested Jimmy for getting in a knife fight. Jimmy's mom said "Jimmy was trying to stop a knife fight, not participate in one. He's a good kid and people don't know Jimmy like I know Jimmy." I told my mom she should have told her "You don't know Jimmy like people know Jimmy".
 

So Billy, if yourkids rob someone/start a knife fight/use drugs, what will you do? Beat them intounconsciousness? Those are bad things and consequences should be dire, right?

[Boethius]

I never even gave my kids time outs, nor did my husband.  Sometimes, at age 4 and 5, after a discussion about his behaviour, our youngest, when angry would say "That's it!  I'm going to my room!"  And off he'd stomp, close the door, put a CD in his little radio/CD player, read a book, or, as my husband would say "He is contemplating his miserable existence as [FULL NAME]."  He'd cool off and come back down the stairs happy.  Then, we would finish our little talk.  Now, he is generally calm.  He is very strong willed (which he gets from his father  ), but no trouble at all.


 
I posted this at Manny's, which sums up my view of disciplining children -

Discipline changes over time, as children grow.  Under say, 3 or 4, there is no need, really, to discipline a child, it is mostly about keeping them safe.  At about 15 months, two of my children threw temper tantrums.  As they rolled on the floor, I just stood and watched them, until they wore themselves out.  It was not a battle of wills but rather, their frustration at knowing what they wanted, but not being able to verbalize it.   My third never had tantrums.
 
You have to know your children and know what makes them tick.  One type of discipline will work with one, but not another.  My children have never been afraid to tell me anything.  When they have done things that are goofy, or without thought, or unkind (usually due to thoughtlessness, rather than any maliciousness) I have talked to them about it, and to this day, we discuss why something could have been handled better.   

Children need stability.  My children always had routines.  Before they started school, they had free time to watch television programmes and for free play, but they also went to bed at the same time each night, got up at the same time, ate their meals at roughly the same time, took walks at the same time (and fresh air is a must for children), and had a fixed bed time routine - bath, brush your teeth, story, bed.  They also had two parents at home most of the time (we organized our work lives so one of us was always home with them), and were never left with a babysitter, other than a family member.
 
Now of course, children can grow up to be healthy, happy adults without routines, that's my opinion.  Children who have suffered tremendous emotional and physical abuse also often grow into remarkable adults.  I just don't think that hitting kids is the one and only way to raise them.  Typically, a child is hit when the adult is angry.  So, that has to be factored into the equation as well.

[Misha]

While your woman is getting beat, you choose to call police and give them directions. Then what will you do? Watch until the police will come?

In my city, the RCMP will be there within minutes. But, hey Billy, if you really need to think you are the "man" and pump up your ego, go ahead. I, for one, prefer to leave the trained police officers do their work.

Will you at least care for your girl...before the police arrive?

Sure, but the intelligent thing is to call in the police first. They have guns, they have training and they are paid to keep law and order. Likewise, if I have a fire in my house, I will call 911, and if I have a medical emergency I will also call 911 and won't try conducting open-heart surgery on myself 
 
 

[BillyB]

If parents want to be blind, they don't know what their kids are doing.  I am not blind, and I know what my kids do. 

Parents don't want to be blind. They all know what their kids are doing. Just ask them. No matter how some people think they are good parents others will criticize the way they're raising their kids. Some could criticize you for spending too much time on the internet neglecting time with your children while claiming to knowing everything your kids do.
 
It is funny how some of you think I'm a monster child beater. I'm a nice guy and people who know me understand this. Some people save the whales or help the homeless. I join the military during wars to help people in far away lands, not because I was offered to be an officer which I turned down. In high school I was the bullies bully. Once during gym class a known bully was being rough with people during a basketball game started to be rough with me. I pushed him to the ground and everybody circled around. The gym teacher ran over and looked at him laying on the ground and looked at me and told me to do what I got to do. The gym teacher trusted me to teach the guy a lesson about respecting people by playing nice.
 
I've had to spank my older boy twice in his 15 years. My younger one hasn't needed to be spanked yet. They are good at learning verbal lessons after they  make mistakes the first time.
 

So Billy, if yourkids rob someone/start a knife fight/use drugs, what will you do? Beat them intounconsciousness? Those are bad things and consequences should be dire, right?

Why beat kids until their unconscious? They can't feel any pain that way. Why would my kids take a knife to a fight when I got guns in the house they can use? If you talk to me like I'm a monster, I'm going to reply in a less serious tone.
 
If my kids steal, get in fights and/or use drugs assuming they are older teens, I will tell the judge he/she has my blessing to lock them up for awhile. After they get out I will educate the child on why they should not steal, be violent, or use drugs or they will get kicked out the house the next time. My kids know I keep my word so there will be no surprises. They will have the freedom then to choose their paths. If they decide to stay in my house, they have to live by house rules and one rule would be to pay back those they stole from or hurt.
 

Typically, a child is hit when the adult is angry.  So, that has to be factored into the equation as well.

Should rephrase that. Typically, a child is hit, gets a verbal scolding, gets a time out or goes to jail when the adult is angry.  Anger is not the problem, it's an emotional reaction to when somebody does something wrong. Applying not enough punishment is just as wrong as applying too much.
 

I just don't think that hitting kids is the one and only way to raise them. 

Who is saying that hitting is the only way to raise a child? I raise my kids just like you guys raise them, with love and attention. 99.99 % of the time I punish them in the same manner you guys punish your kids with non physical techniques. But spanking is an option if I feel it's needed and it's needed when words and time out does not solve the problem.
 

Sure
 

What does "sure" mean? You will give your girl reassuring words that the police will arrive in minutes to end the violence? Could you be more specific?
 

the intelligent thing is to call in the police first. They have guns, they have training and they are paid to keep law and order. Likewise, if I have a fire in my house, I will call 911, and if I have a medical emergency I will also call 911 and won't try conducting open-heart surgery on myself 
 

If I paid you for training, got you a concealed weapons permit(assuming it was legal in Canada) and paid you to protect your girl, would you then be willing to protect your girl immediately possibly saving her from a broken nose? The scenario I presented to you is about kids commiting violence against your wife, not full grown thugs.
 
A guy shouldn't need to be paid to protect his own girl. He should be ready to do it at any time.
 
If you're a pacifist then please be honest about it and the fact you prefer others such as police to do the dirty work. Any guy that is a pacifist needs to tell their RW before a relationship that they will never be violent even if it is to protect her and their children. If a guy lets his woman or children get beat because he's worried about himself getting hurt or he's anti violent no matter what the situation, better she know now than later because most women would dump their man when they lose respect for him.

[Misha]

If you're a pacifist then please be honest about it and the fact you prefer others such as police to do the dirty work.

Yes, in the same way that I let the city workers do the dirty work in the sewers   

Any guy that is a pacifist needs to tell their RW before a relationship that they will never be violent even if it is to protect her and their children.

Billy, my wife knew who she was marrying. I had no need to preen with working class bravado, as she preferred intelligence to  machismo 

If a guy lets his woman or children get beat because he's worried about himself getting hurt or he's anti violent no matter what the situation, better she know now than later because most women would dump their man when they lose respect for him.

Bla-bla-bla.... You truly have a need to compensate for something Billy.

[Boethius]

Well gee, Billy, you may be right.  I'm certain I am a bad mother.  Horrible in fact.  Call social services.

You see, my kids are teens.  You know, those teen years where kids start being approached online by middle aged men looking for "friendship"?  Fortunately, my kids aren't on dating sites, their online social interactions are within the confines of closed IM functions, and my daughter doesn't live in a second world country where a quarter of the population lives on less than $3 a day.

My kids usually socialize with friends, when in person, in our home.  I planned it that way.  When the kids are not meeting F2F, they talk over skype.  That is a very common way for kids to communicate these days.  I'm sure you'd know this if you asked your teen aged stepson.  Or your fiancee.

Unlike the mother of a particular teen of your acquaintance, I'm not afraid to leave my teens and their friends away from my omnipresent watchful eye as they socialize in our rec room playing X-Box or pool, or walk to the store for a slurpee, or go out and play hockey outside.  I provide snacks, and, other than the two who live a few houses away, I drive them all home.  I make sure each child I drive home walks safely through his/her door.  I've met all their parents.  Some I've known since our kids were in elementary school and I've made a point of introducing myself to others, if the kids met later.  All these kids are unfailingly polite.  I have little doubt if I decided to "hang out" with them, they would still be as polite, though unlike your experience of teen friendship, these teens would not profess their undying love to me.  As teens, I believe they would find it rather weird and unnatural, and my children would soon become social pariahs.

Unlike you, who is a part time father, I am a full time mother.  My children live with us 24/7.  We drive them (the best time to get your teen to open up is in a car), to school, to hockey practice, to basketball, etc.  I am up a little earlier than 6 am to cook breakfast, I make 3 lunches, and every evening,  I cook dinner.  The kids and I eat as a family every night.  My husband works shifts, and when he is home, we all eat together.  He usually cooks weekends.  Friday night is dinner and a movie, if there's a movie the kids wish to see.

I don't even bother to check the homework of the older two, unless they ask me to read something.  My middle son has become very interested in the works of Nietzsche, and he likes to debate with us about what he's read.  Frankly, that is usually something better suited to his father, who has an exceptionally strong and logical mind.  The youngest is getting to an age where he, too, no longer requires homework supervision.  So, I would hazard a guess I know my children very well.

Not everyone sits on a construction site daily, Billy.  Like BC, almost all my work is on a computer.  I sit behind a screen all day, answering emails, editing documents, printing them, and re-editing.   Like him, I have been known to work in my pajamas, but I still have an office, 12 minutes, door to door (15 minutes from the high school, thanks to the freeway, though the high school is, in rush hour, about a 25 minute drive door to door).  I take a briefcase home every night.  So, to read this forum takes me a few minutes.  I don't need to use spellcheck, and I type 90 wpm.  I can tell which posters here work behind a screen, just by their posting patterns.

[Boethius]

Yes, in the same way that I let the city workers do the dirty work in the sewers   



Billy, my wife knew who she was marrying. I had no need to preen with working class bravado, as she preferred intelligence to  machismo 



Bla-bla-bla.... You truly have a need to compensate for something Billy.

Nope.  Bzzzt.  Sorry.  You're just not a "manly man". 

Stand in line for lessons.  Right after I receive mine on improving my maternal skills.

[Ade]

I'm old school with this.
 
To begin with, there's a huge difference between spanking a child from beating a child. That's not saying one should be spanking kids with reckless abandon and as a first step of the process....I believe there will be times where spanking is necessary. It doesn't have to be a painful punishment, per se, but rather a physical jolt that catches the child's attention.
 
I've witness far too many Mumski blatantly ignored by their child/ren despite repeated hopeless pleading.
 
There seems to be way too many extremes being played here. BillyB's hypothetical sampling of kids gone bad is a good example. Adolescent criminals commit these crimes not because they lacked spanking when growing up. They became what they are because of abusive parents and/or sheer neglect.

 

Spanking is a just an easy way to say slapping. It's still physical force used against defenseless children, meant to force compliance through fear of physical pain. If a situation gets to the point of using physical force then the parent has totally lost control and/or the child has; either way, something is seriously wrong and the root cause needs to be fixed. And that cannot be accomplished by more physical punishment.

[Ade]

Are you more violent than your father? So much for research.

I was. Much more during my teens. However, the reasons why I was then and why I changed drastically are far more complex than whether I was spanked or not as a child. Research, especially in areas such as this, is not always as clear cut as there are huge numbers of confounding factors that can muddy the waters. Also, "spanking" is usually just one of a myriad of interrelated behaviours towards a child that will influence the way a child interacts with the world. Singling out just one of those behaviours and their consequences is not always possible unless it is an extreme example, for instance, repeated long term physical abuse. However, with enough time and a big enough sample, general trends can and do emerge.

You don't understand. Spanking isn't for teaching children good behavior. It's to discourage repeat bad behavior. Words are used for teaching good behavior. Words will not always discourage bad behavior. That is why other options are available. Time outs or spanking.

Yes, words can discourage bad behaviour and, in the cases where this does not work, there are forms of negative reinforcement that do not require hitting children. Hitting, no matter how lightly and no matter what label you use, is still hitting and children being children will pick up on the fact that hit = comply and they will take this lesson with them when they interact with other children.

The experts advice does not work for everybody. Some children respond to words. Some children respond to time outs. Some to spanking. One piece of advice does not fit all.

There are always a few that think they are the exceptions to the rule.
 

As civilization advances I understand some people want to be more moral, more ethical and more civilized than their forefathers. Plenty of books to read on how to do that.

Back in the day, the world was far more brutal than it is now. People tend to forget that spanking and its many equivalent forms over the years didn't manage to stop that brutality. Violence breeds violence. Using it, however mild a form, will just teach a child that violence is the answer when it's not. And, FWIW, using violence to defend oneself is not the same thing.
 

Since being terrified of your father slapping you in the arse with your slipper bothers you to this day, is it safe to say you are pyschologically damaged? I don't think your father damaged you.

It bothers me that this is one of the major memories I have and it colours my perception of those years. I can't remember what it was for. I certainly don't think it changed my behaviour for the good. In other words, its effect was entirely negative, not positive.
 

Bad boy for saying that about your father. You resent him for your failures?
 

Is your reading comprehension as truly as bad as you make out? Or do you just act  like a bag of hammers for effect and to get a rise out of people?

So anybody that doesn't agree with you and what you read is dumb?

Those that ignore pertinent research out of hand are ignorant and yes, really, really dumb.
 

I got my butt spanked hard by my dad a few times. FWIW I grew up to be a law abiding citizen. Never got thrown in jail, never got drunk or done drugs. In high school I was the guy who kicked violent kids(such as yourself) butt when they picked on the weak and the ones with disabilities. I don't credit or discredit spanking for the way I grew up but I realized there are consequences for my actions and spanking was one of them.

You also grew up to be a willy waving braggart that thinks it's okay chat up teenage virgins on the net and to hit children. You are not someone that I would hold up as an example of all that's good and wholesome.
 

Anyway you and others are still free to answer my earlier question. If your wife is getting a beat down by some kids do you....

Totally irrelevant.

[GQBlues]

.....Spanking is a just an easy way to say slapping. It's still physical force used against defenseless children, meant to force compliance through fear of physical pain. If a situation gets to the point of using physical force then the parent has totally lost control and/or the child has; either way, something is seriously wrong and the root cause needs to be fixed.

 
...and I am happy to agree to disagree......
 
 

... And that cannot be accomplished by more physical punishment.

 
...because any type of physical punishment, by itself, is wrong. A parent need to take the time and allow the child to understand the distinction of these  moments. Then be done with it...Conversely, hour long, 2-hour long timeouts, to me, is far more damaging to child's psyche than a little slap on the wrist - with the word 'no', followed by an explanation why - is my preferred way.

[GQBlues]

I see you added that after I posted. Some people believe spanking produces criminals. I believe neglect produces more criminals as in sparing the rod spoils the child. Kids will always test and push their parents. Some kids back off with words. Others need time out. Others need spanking. Neglecting necessary disipline or stopping short of what's necessary can allow the child to grow out of control to the point society deals with them in various ways. My hypothetical scenario isn't extreme. One million people in jail in this country at any given day and millions of others have served time. Problem people are not as rare as some may think. In some cities such as Flint, Michigan, 1 out of 45 people living there was the victim of violent crime.

Do you ever notice how most, if not all, of the so-called experts are generally of a certain creed/culture? Then you look into our society's criminal archives and you'll easily find how some of the 'more' heinous crimes are typically committed by folks FROM the same creed/culture? Serial criminals like Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc...shocking killers like Charles Manson, Tim McVeigh, Ted Kazynski, Columbine kids, etc...
 
 
Sure, upbringing have largely contributed to a lot of these unfortunate times, but to attribute them as the sole reason why crazy people go nuts is wrong. The Menendez brothers, Richard Ramirez, John Allan Muhammad, etc...will gladly show you the error of your thinking.
 
That's what I meant when I said people goes to extreme in trying to make simple points. One doesn't need to dive into the deepest ocean just to find out how cold the ocean is...
 
I no more agree with your extreme sampling as I do with Ade's seeming lack of distinction between spanking a child from beating a child.

[Muzh]

 
I've witness far too many Mumski blatantly ignored by their child/ren despite repeated hopeless pleading.
 

Was she on the cell phone totally oblivious to the world? Because the majority of mumskis I've seen with the same dilemma were trying to control their child(ren) so she could resume her yakking.
 
I have three children and I have been extremely physical with them, as in giving lots of hugs and kisses. I have never been to the point of losing my self-control with them. I ask them once and then they will get "the look" as my kids call it. No, not the "I'm going to kill you" look, just the one saying to them I explained it clearly to them and it is time to stop. I dare anyone to try to slap my 6'4" 18 yo into attention. However, all I have to do is give him "the look" to get some results, even though he is beyond that and he knows already.

[BC]

Children are imitators, most of their actions are learned by imitating what they see and absorb.

Scream at a child you teach them screaming is ok, even to you and/or the next generation.

Strike a child and you teach them that striking is ok, even you and/or the next generation.

And the list goes on and on...

Of course that list can include the more positive influences.. thus indeed a parents choice.

Of course we also imitate our parents in many ways, so breaking a negative cycle can be extremely difficult but worth the extra effort in the end.

Praising good behavior will always trump punishing bad behavior.

JMHO.

[Gator]

Praising good behavior will always trump punishing bad behavior.

Best advice.  Said another way, catch your children doing something good and praise them immediately.
 
It also works well with employees.  Dogs too. 

[BC]

Best advice.  Said another way, catch your children doing something good and praise them immediately.
 
It also works well with employees.  Dogs too.

Gator,

One day browsed a used book store and found 'The One Minute Manager' http://www.amazon.com/Minute-Manager-Ph-D-Kenneth-Blanchard/dp/0425098478  Paid something like 99 cents for it.

That was the day my business started turning for the better, in fact success.  The same principles also worked quite well in my private life.

The best investment I ever made.

[BillyB]

Unlike the mother of a particular teen of your acquaintance, I'm not afraid to leave my teens and their friends away from my omnipresent watchful eye as they socialize in our rec room playing X-Box or pool, or walk to the store for a slurpee, or go out and play hockey outside.

Are you trying to say the mother of my fiancee is more afraid than you to leave a daughter alone? Can you allow your daughter to move to a far away land with a guy like me without putting up any resistance or trying to control her actions? I don't think you can give your daughter such freedoms of choice assuming ages of the daughter was the same. I bet you micromanage and control your kids lives more than my fiancee's mom does with hers.
 

  So, I would hazard a guess I know my children very well.

 
Then why does your husband ask why you come here? Why are you on the internet so much when you have a house full of family? The work on the internet excuse doesn't cut it unless you work on the internet 16 hours a day or own some internet sites.
 

Nope.  Bzzzt.  Sorry.  You're just not a "manly man". 

 
Misha, don't feel bad. You have people defending your actions. If you can't throw a punch to defend your woman could you at least say you'd throw your body in front of her to take the hits? Can you protect your wife with your own life? If you have kids, can you protect your kids with your own life? You've been giving me everything for answers when the answer should be a simple "yes" or "no".

 

Violence breeds violence. Using it, however mild a form, will just teach a child that violence is the answer when it's not. And, FWIW, using violence to defend oneself is not the same thing.

 
Most of the time after kicking a bully's butt he tries to befriend me, never to get some payback in a violent way. He usually behaves. I don't fight bullies to defend myself. I intervene when they need a lesson on how to behave just as a parent intervenes to get their kids to behave. Self defense has nothing to do with it. You can use your way. I'll use my way to curb certain bad behaviors in kids and I'll get results. During your bad attitude, violent, drug filled days we should have crossed paths. I might have cured you earlier and better than your father. There are plenty of people sympathetic to criminals, drug users and those that are a drain on society. I'm not one of them.
 

I no more agree with your extreme sampling as I do with Ade's seeming lack of distinction between spanking a child from beating a child.

 
I guess you didn't understand why I used an extreme example. It is to show those who believe spanking a child is no good under any circumstance that they can actually punch a child under certain circumstances to alter the child's behavior to achieve benefitial results long term for all parties. I don't believe if everyone followed the "experts" advice that this will be a violent free world so forms of disipline outside of their recommendation will always be needed.
 
 
As far as rearing children, it's one of those hot topics such as politics and abortion. Anybody thinking of getting married should discuss these hot topics with your potential spouse before marriage.
 
In my step fathers first marriage he had problems when his wife took away his ability to disipline the kids since she believed in no spanking listening to the experts. Women can be very overly protective of their kids and don't need the husband anymore. Not wanting to argue, he agreed to let her do all the disipline to raise the kids. The kids got into drugs, violence and skipping school. During their teen years it got to the point when the kids told mom "NO" to everything she asked them to do. When mom got angry, the told her to "Fukc off". She asked my step father to intervene and he reminded her that he promised to let her disipline the kids. It got worse to the point she finally begged him to do what it takes to get the kids back on the right track. He agreed and the boys showed fear when he said that. He gave the kids wall to wall counseling. It's the kind of counseling where the kids bounce off the wall a lot. They were not little, they were near adult sized thugs. The kids got an attitude readjustment and from then on they said "Yes mom" to everything mom asked them to do.

[GQBlues]

Was she on the cell phone totally oblivious to the world? Because the majority of mumskis I've seen with the same dilemma were trying to control their child(ren) so she could resume her yakking.

I have seen such situations, Muzh. But no, it isn't what I exemplified above. I'm not sure if this phrase is distinct in FSU, but the phrase, "never take the man out of the boy" seem to always be present in these instances...

 

I have three children and I have been extremely physical with them, as in giving lots of hugs and kisses. I have never been to the point of losing my self-control with them. I ask them once and then they will get "the look" as my kids call it. No, not the "I'm going to kill you" look, just the one saying to them I explained it clearly to them and it is time to stop. I dare anyone to try to slap my 6'4" 18 yo into attention. However, all I have to do is give him "the look" to get some results, even though he is beyond that and he knows already.

That's exactly how both my sister and brothers have with their kids. Especially my brother. I think he's the coolest father in the entire universe in the way his kids have grown up and their relationship with him. I asked him before if he ever spanked his kids since I never saw him do it. His answer, of course, once or twice and that was enough. He felt all he really need to do was make his kids 'recognize' right from wrong, and if they're uncertain, a 'look' from him will make those uncertain distinction - distinct. It was far more important to him to 'be there' as a guide to let them make distinctions in life along the way. But it had to have a baseline....

[Boethius]

My husband doesn't ask me why I'm on the internet.  When he's home, he's usually on a laptop beside me.  Why am I online so much?  Because about 90% of my work is done online, and because of this, I am pretty much always available to clients.  That is what clients demand these days. 
 
Why are you online as much as you are, and chasing a child halfway across the world when you have two children who should be the top priority in your life?

[ECOCKS]

My husband doesn't ask me why I'm on the internet.  When he's home, he's usually on a laptop beside me.  Why am I online so much?  Because about 90% of my work is done online, and because of this, I am pretty much always available to clients.  That is what clients demand these days. 
 
Why are you online as much as you are, and chasing a child halfway across the world when you have two children who should be the top priority in your life?

Well-played...

[Ade]

Most of the time after kicking a bully's butt he tries to befriend me, never to get some payback in a violent way. He usually behaves. I don't fight bullies to defend myself. I intervene when they need a lesson on how to behave just as a parent intervenes to get their kids to behave. Self defense has nothing to do with it. You can use your way. I'll use my way to curb certain bad behaviors in kids and I'll get results. During your bad attitude, violent, drug filled days we should have crossed paths. I might have cured you earlier and better than your father. There are plenty of people sympathetic to criminals, drug users and those that are a drain on society. I'm not one of them.

There you go waving that willy of yours again. One thing I learned a long, long time ago was that guys with a mouth like yours were just that, all mouth and I highly doubt that you had or have it in you to "cure" me of anything.

Well, I gave my opinion and no one is going to change their minds in a thread like this. Those that think spanking is a good thing should do some reading of the research though; you owe your kids that much at least even if the research doesn't change your mind.

[BC]

Well, I gave my opinion and no one is going to change their minds in a thread like this. Those that think spanking is a good thing should do some reading of the research though; you owe your kids that much at least even if the research doesn't change your mind.

Ade,

Yes, it can be a challenging subject.. just think about it..  what is one of the first learned behavior?... 'I need'...  Cry and parents run with the milk bottle or a fresh diaper.. later that turns into 'I want' but the behavior is the same to achieve that goal.  It's tough for a parent to tell the difference.

How may times have you heard 'If you behave I'll give you a candy' or toy or whatever reward... simply to stop the kid from being a brat.. - a lot...  follow the escalation path of this behavior and tell me if it is a wonder that kids end up like those even BillyB describes in the store?

The basic problem is that many parents think that even asking for assistance puts them in the position of declaring themselves as bad parents.

Kids are not born with an owners manual.  I've seen many parents go to birthing classes, but very few at parenting classes.  Most will not seek available assistance when things get out of hand.

Kids are not dumb.. in fact in many ways they can be smarter than their parents.

[Aloe]

If you're a pacifist then please be honest about it and the fact you prefer others such as police to do the dirty work. Any guy that is a pacifist needs to tell their RW before a relationship that they will never be violent even if it is to protect her and their children. If a guy lets his woman or children get beat because he's worried about himself getting hurt or he's anti violent no matter what the situation, better she know now than later because most women would dump their man when they lose respect for him.

Wow, i actually agree with the above passage. Never thought i'd agree with Billy on anything, but here it is If your woman is getting assaulted, verbally or physically, you need to step up and be a man and defend her.
I actually once was talking to a guy and this specific conversation happened. He told me he is a very peaceful guy and could NEVER hurt anyone. So i asked, what if you need to protect your woman, and if you don't hit someone, she will get hurt. He said he still wouldn't hit anyone. I lost all respect for that guy immediately and wrote him off.
So I definitely agree, if you are this way too, make sure your woman is aware of it before you two enter a relationship.

I just cannot possibly imagine, being hurt in front of my partner, and him standing there not doing anything to protect me. How can i respect someone like this? I just can't respect someone who will not move to defend me, out of self preservation instict or any other reason, you just need to protect your woman and/or children, that's it.


While i am talking about this, i am imagining a situation involving fists or verbal abuse only.
If knives or other weapons are involved, then it's different i suppose. If i got stabbed, i wouldn't want my hubby doing anything, no point in us both getting stabbed.