Sick of it

[BC]

When will the world realize that like religion, catholic, protestant, jewish, orthodox, etc etc there are many forms of democracy and not only one form is 'right'.

I say to each his own.  The losses of contradiction are far to great.

[Gator]

I agree with most of your points in post #139, except for the reasons the U.S invaded Iraq in 2003.
A "higher goal" was not to create a democracy there. I'd be curious to see any official statement of that being the case.

 

If that were not a higher goal, why did we stay after toppling Saddam and finding no WMD?     

You might think the definition of "acquistive" is gobbling up countries and increasing the size of your empire. I don't. I use the standard dictionary definition  of the word.

I use the diplomatic and business definition, particularly the latter, i. e. acquisition. 

So let's see if I got this right; when the U.S. was in Iraq all these years they didn't touch any of the oil reserves there; that would have been downright acquisitive and most certainly not a noble thing to do.

I have no idea.  Not that much was being pumped because of the war.  At $100/barrel, America would have had to commandeer 20 million barrels just to break even considering the cost of the war.  Improbable?

[SANDRO43]

For those who may wonder what a bandura (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandura for more details on this zither/lute instrument) sounds like :

[AC]

I first said "you are wrong."       You seem to have the same opinion as Russians, so you should read Wiki and other sources rather than listen to your wife. 

Please correct the facts as I recognize them.  I consider them very relevant and similar to the conflict in Ukraine:

1.  South Ossetia, part of Georgia's sovereign territory, has long been in conflict with Georgia and as early as 1990 had announced it wanted to secede from Georgia.  Georgia did not agree to the secession.

2.  Tensions escalated in the 1990s and a joint peacekeeping force of Georgian and Russian troops was stationed in South Ossetia.  Part of South Ossetia was controlled by "Ossetian militia," similar to the pro-Russian separatists and "little green men"  in today's eastern Ukraine.

3.  In January 2008 Mikheil Saakashvili  was re-elected President of Georgia on a pro-Western platform such as joining NATO and maintaining territory integrity (sound familiar to Ukraine?).

4.  Tensions continued to mount and on 1 August 2008 the Ossetian militia shelled Georgian villages with artillery.

5.  On the evening of 7 August 2008 Georgia responded by attacking in large force the Ossetia militia and the Russian peace keeping forces embedded with them (your point).  Later Georgia testified before the UN Security Council that it responded also because Russia had sent tanks into Georgia on 7 August 2008.

6.  Within a few hours Russia hit South Ossteia with an even larger counterattack (obviously Russia was ready to attack).  Russia quickly routed the Georgia forces and continued its attack into Georgia, occupying four Georgia cities, defeating the Georgian Navy, and downing Georgian planes.   

7.  A diplomatic intervention led by France created a ceasefire on 12 August (hence, the term "four day war"). 

8.   On 8 August 2008, South Ossetia was part of the sovereign territory of Georgia.  After the war South Ossetia declared its independence from Georgia.  Only a few countries recognize it today as not part of Georgia.

You forgot to mention that Bush Jr. sent the 6th fleet all the way to Georgia, supposedly for humanitarian reasons.  He also sent a lot of cargo planed to the capitol city, supposedly containing medical aid.  The Russians had been advancing towards Tbisili prior to that, and then turned back.  Give credit where it is due.

[CanadaMan]

If that were not a higher goal, why did we stay after toppling Saddam and finding no WMD?     

To bring democracy to a country that was desperate for it?
Oil.

I use the diplomatic and business definition, particularly the latter, i. e. acquisition. 

I see.
I use  'strong desire to own or acquire more things'.
Namely oil, in this case.

I have no idea.  Not that much was being pumped because of the war.  At $100/barrel, America would have had to commandeer 20 million barrels just to break even considering the cost of the war.  Improbable?

Improbable? How about likely?
Iraq produces 3 million barrels a day!
20 million barrels in one week!

[lordtiberius]

If we went into Iraq for oil, then where are all the wells owned by Halliburton?

**crickets**

Why should we bail out the Maliki government?  Gator is right, let these bastards kill each other.  I would only ask ISIS through our allies the Qataris of course, to leave the Christians alone. 

Still waiting for a personal accounting of from the never-evers (doves & chicken hawks) of how much personal loss they have endured in Iraq.  But on the bright side its not like you guys are mocking the real suffering of those innocently caught in a war zone like in Luhansk.

[fathertime]

Maybe I was too abstract. 

I disagree with you about Putin.  I contend Putin would have been aggressive even if the US had been passive over the past 20 years.   

You could be right, regarding Crimea.  Russia may have never permitted the potential loss of control of those areas.  I would say if we hadn't been intervening elsewhere and sending funds/fomenting Ukraine probably would have never reached the point where Russia felt the need to take over Crimea.

That's a lot of money with hardly anything to show for it.  In Vietnam and Iraq, our military did the heavy lifting.  And soon after we pulled out the national forces collapsed.     Hopefully we have learned our lesson and will not repeat our intervention mistake a third time.

 
I agree that is an enormous amount of money down the drain. Spending it on practically anything lasting within our borders would have been way better....lets up that our 'representatives' learn what not to do...it seems the general populace has, as is show by the complete lack of support regarding us intervening going forward.


Fathertime! 

[Gator]

Improbable? How about likely?
Iraq produces 3 million barrels a day!
20 million barrels in one week!

My math was wrong.  Instead of 20 million barrels, the correct answer was 20 billion barrels (the war cost $2 trillion - a very high price just to  give the country away to Islamist extremists).  I had the math correct in my head but not on paper.      Dementia is a horrible affliction. 

CanadaMan,

You are inflating the importance of oil.  If oil were that important, we would take it from our docile neighbors to the north.   

[Gator]

For those who may wonder what a bandura (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandura for more details on this zither/lute instrument) sounds like :

A bandura is a splendid musical instrument, yet even finer is Adam Scott's swing.

[BillyB]

I agree that is an enormous amount of money down the drain. Spending it on practically anything lasting within our borders would have been way better...

Every President has wasted money but America is strong because more right decisions have been made than wrong. Obama may help change that though.


America pays less for fuel than Europe. One reason is because we provide security. There were nations in the Middle East that pressured us to do something about Iraq. Saudi Arabia and nearby neighbors of Iraq were frightened they'd lose their country to Saddam. They bought a lot of American military hardware and sell us oil cheaper than to others. America benefits at home when we have extra money in our pockets when paying less at the pump. We benefit when nations want to bond with us and buy our products. The money spent overseas is an investment. Most of the time the investment is good.


Vietnam was not an investment but simply one of many steps in slowing down or pushing back Communism. America' military could have won the war easily if America's politicians didn't drag it out. We had much more corrupt politicians then than we do now.


Currently a few nations in Europe have begged America to put troops in their country. In Obama's world he would rather not be active militarily anywhere. On the job training has shown him his stance is wrong. Being passive compared to previous Presidents have encouraged groups and nations to be more aggressive in land grabs. In the end, the world will be more dangerous, nations will turn to others for help, and we will not prosper. One of the biggest reasons America is very prosperous and a superpower is because we help others with their security.

[fathertime]

Every President has wasted money but America is strong because more right decisions have been made than wrong. Obama may help change that though.


America pays less for fuel than Europe. One reason is because we provide security. There were nations in the Middle East that pressured us to do something about Iraq. Saudi Arabia and nearby neighbors of Iraq were frightened they'd lose their country to Saddam. They bought a lot of American military hardware and sell us oil cheaper than to others. America benefits at home when we have extra money in our pockets when paying less at the pump. We benefit when nations want to bond with us and buy our products. The money spent overseas is an investment. Most of the time the investment is good.


Vietnam was not an investment but simply one of many steps in slowing down or pushing back Communism. America' military could have won the war easily if America's politicians didn't drag it out. We had much more corrupt politicians then than we do now.


Currently a few nations in Europe have begged America to put troops in their country. In Obama's world he would rather not be active militarily anywhere. On the job training has shown him his stance is wrong. Being passive compared to previous Presidents have encouraged groups and nations to be more aggressive in land grabs. In the end, the world will be more dangerous, nations will turn to others for help, and we will not prosper. One of the biggest reasons America is very prosperous and a superpower is because we help others with their security.

well Billyb, you could be in part right regarding us providing 'security for financial gains'...if I thought that were going to be true going forward, I would be more supportive of our willing troops being mercenaries although the US laws might have to change in order for that to be legal. 


With all the new hot spots erupting the world around, I do question exactly why WE would need to interrupt their internal fighting and become the new target.  I continue to believe our best move is to sit things out and keep our powder dry.  I don't see any reason why Europe would be begging for American troops, but if they are and are willing to pay for them, then lets see how much they are willing to pay.  Most of us lowly citizens aren't interested in diverting dollars away from the populace to subsidize other nation's security concerns for free. 


Fathertime! 

[Shadow]

I first said "you are wrong."       You seem to have the same opinion as Russians, so you should read Wiki and other sources rather than listen to your wife. 

Please correct the facts as I recognize them.  I consider them very relevant and similar to the conflict in Ukraine:

1.  South Ossetia, part of Georgia's sovereign territory, has long been in conflict with Georgia and as early as 1990 had announced it wanted to secede from Georgia.  Georgia did not agree to the secession.

2.  Tensions escalated in the 1990s and a joint peacekeeping force of Georgian and Russian troops was stationed in South Ossetia.  Part of South Ossetia was controlled by "Ossetian militia," similar to the pro-Russian separatists and "little green men"  in today's eastern Ukraine.

3.  In January 2008 Mikheil Saakashvili  was re-elected President of Georgia on a pro-Western platform such as joining NATO and maintaining territory integrity (sound familiar to Ukraine?).

4.  Tensions continued to mount and on 1 August 2008 the Ossetian militia shelled Georgian villages with artillery.

5.  On the evening of 7 August 2008 Georgia responded by attacking in large force the Ossetia militia and the Russian peace keeping forces embedded with them (your point).  Later Georgia testified before the UN Security Council that it responded also because Russia had sent tanks into Georgia on 7 August 2008.

6.  Within a few hours Russia hit South Ossteia with an even larger counterattack (obviously Russia was ready to attack).  Russia quickly routed the Georgia forces and continued its attack into Georgia, occupying four Georgia cities, defeating the Georgian Navy, and downing Georgian planes.   

7.  A diplomatic intervention led by France created a ceasefire on 12 August (hence, the term "four day war"). 

8.   On 8 August 2008, South Ossetia was part of the sovereign territory of Georgia.  After the war South Ossetia declared its independence from Georgia.  Only a few countries recognize it today as not part of Georgia.

You are still using revisionist history and you are still wrong.
Search here on RWD for posts of 2008 regarding the truth.

[Anotherkiwi]

A bandura is a splendid musical instrument, yet even finer is Adam Scott's swing.

Do you think that New Zealand caddy has helped with his resurgence, and his eventual position as World No. 1? 

[Gator]

Do you think that New Zealand caddy has helped with his resurgence, and his eventual position as World No. 1? 

For sure.  Contrast the performance of Adam and Tiger in the majors after Tiger "released" Steve.   I thought Tiger benefitted from Steve's strong personality.


Projection:  With that wonderful swing Adam misses few fairways and greens.  Then alas it comes down to putting, which at times betrays Adam.  Steve can only read putts and is not allowed to make the putts.    And it will get worse when the "broom stick" is banned.

[GQBlues]

...Most Americans like me didn't want him (Obama) to touch those places with a 10 foot pole, but he was pressured by the war hawks that America HAD to do something.  And once he did do something, he was criticized endlessly by the same hawks who told him to get involved....

More on this...

The terrorist cell in Iraq prior to the war was Ansar Al Islam.

http://www.shadowspear.com/2014/03/operation-viking-hammer-2003/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam

A covert US-led mission was conducted prior to the invasion of Iraq. It was led by US Army's Green Beret SF. The ensuing confrontation is now held as the fiercest the Green Beret SF fought since the American Vietnam war...see *Operation Viking Hammer*. When the force reached a town called *Sargot*, they did in fact found a converted laboratory home manufacturing deadly Ricin gas, a WMD.

This terrorist group were active during the Iraq war and in many of the Arab uprisings including Syria. It is also spotted as being active in the present day siege of Iraq.

Under the leadership of Obama - we *almost* armed - but aided these rebels nonetheless in their fight against Assad's regime. The infamous *redline* debacle. Chances are, we aided them in Libya as well and I won't be surprised if they are not the ones responsible for the Benghazi embassy attack cover-up. Now Obama is declaring to help Maliki against the very same group with POSSIBLY an Iranian coalition. A stout Russian ally.

All these madness will impact the price of oil. and with every dollar price increases, Russia gets stronger.

For FWIW, the single biggest beneficiary and buyer of Iraq's oil: China.

So yes, Obama is definitely clueless..

[lordtiberius]

I was there

[lordtiberius]

Russia Is Moving Thousands of Troops Back to Ukraine Border, NATO Says

http://mashable.com/2014/06/19/russia-troops-ukraine-border-nato-says/

The US is not even helping these people - no medical supplies, no uniforms or logistics, not even fixing roads or helping with the over 50,000 refugees. . . .

[fathertime]

Speaking on the theme of US intervention and meddling, I just read today that we (The US) have just told Uganda that we are not going to continue sending them money until they amend THEIR laws regarding homosexuality.
 A couple points on this:
1.        Why is our govt giving OUR money away to Uganda to begin with?
2.       Who the hell are WE to dictate to this sovereign country what kinds of laws they can have regarding homosexuality? 
I happen to be all for gay rights, but I sure as hell don’t think we should be financially threatening another nation about how they handle the issue.  Other nations DO NOT have to abide by what members of the US govt. think about how they should be handling homosexuals.  It is a different country, with different customs/religions….and they also are rife with AIDS patients.  Here is what Uganda leadership had to say:
Ugandan government spokesman Ofwono Opondo told Reuters on Thursday that the announced cuts will not cause the government to amend its anti-gay laws.
“Uganda is a sovereign country and can never bow to anybody or be blackmailed by anybody on a decision it took in its interests, even if it involves threats to cut off all financial assistance,” he said.
 
 Good for Uganda!   It is embarrassing that our country’s ‘representatives’ are going around the world telling everybody what to do….they sure aren't representing my interests when they do this.   Bringing this back towards Ukraine, I and probably Russia believe that among many things once we start getting involved with Ukraine,  we will behave similarly and slowly attempt to impose our will and encroach upon their customs through financial threats.


http://time.com/2902234/us-uganda-homosexuality/


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

Speaking on the theme of US intervention and meddling, I just read today that we (The US) have just told Uganda that we are not going to continue sending them money until they amend THEIR laws regarding homosexuality.
 A couple points on this:
1.        Why is our govt giving OUR money away to Uganda to begin with?
2.       Who the hell are WE to dictate to this sovereign country what kinds of laws they can have regarding homosexuality? 
I happen to be all for gay rights, but I sure as hell don’t think we should be financially threatening another nation about how they handle the issue.  Other nations DO NOT have to abide by what members of the US govt. think about how they should be handling homosexuals.  It is a different country, with different customs/religions….and they also are rife with AIDS patients.  Here is what Uganda leadership had to say:
Ugandan government spokesman Ofwono Opondo told Reuters on Thursday that the announced cuts will not cause the government to amend its anti-gay laws.
“Uganda is a sovereign country and can never bow to anybody or be blackmailed by anybody on a decision it took in its interests, even if it involves threats to cut off all financial assistance,” he said.
 
 Good for Uganda!   It is embarrassing that our country’s ‘representatives’ are going around the world telling everybody what to do….they sure aren't representing my interests when they do this.   Bringing this back towards Ukraine, I and probably Russia believe that among many things once we start getting involved with Ukraine,  we will behave similarly and slowly attempt to impose our will and encroach upon their customs through financial threats.


http://time.com/2902234/us-uganda-homosexuality/


Fathertime!   

Is Putler invading Uganda?

[BillyB]

Most of us lowly citizens aren't interested in diverting dollars away from the populace to subsidize other nation's security concerns for free. 

I used to be one of those citizens. Later I learned the importance of helping friends and giving financial aid. Nations are influenced with money. Money isn't necessarily evil but if we gave nothing and Russia gave a nation's leader a million dollars, that nation may become our enemy and cost us a whole lot more than a million.


No matter if a politician ran on the platform of being anti-war, if elected president, he/she will find himself in a conflict one way or another. When was the last year there has never been a conflict between humans on this planet? A conflict in the Middle East or a large conflict will certainly affect us economically at home. If our allies are getting their butts kicked, they won't be in a position to spend money on our products. It's important for our economy at home to have safe, happy, and economically healthy friends abroad.

[BillyB]

Russia Is Moving Thousands of Troops Back to Ukraine Border, NATO Says

http://mashable.com/2014/06/19/russia-troops-ukraine-border-nato-says/

The citizens of the world are getting tired of hearing about Ukraine and Russia and our attention span has hit its limit. Putin knows this and will make moves when few are looking. Hitler spent over a year annexing land before going to war. Putin knows history and most people don't care what happens outside their country. At the rate Ukraine is going with the militia losing its edge, the number of Russian citizens are going to get killed. Putin may someday use that excuse to enter into Ukraine.


An easy chance for expansion. Opportunity like this doesn't come along often in history for a leader who wants to go down in history. A weak neighbor, a weak Europe and a weak American president. It's "Now Time" for Putin or he may miss his chance. Putin has pressure. Ultra nationlist political parties are pressuring him to invade now. Invading will help his popularity just as Crimea did. Timing is important and its all that's left. If Putin invades, he'll do it while Obama is president. America may not elect another pansy next election.

[lordtiberius]

People on this forum complain about what a waste of money Iraq and Nam werein argument against intervention and involvement in Ukraine.  But we have 1.2 trillion in student loan debt. 50%,in default or deferment.  The cost of education has gone up 79% in the last decade and the US government is expected to make $ 184 billion in student loan payments.

A little perspective . . .

[GQBlues]

People on this forum complain about what a waste of money Iraq and Nam werein argument against intervention and involvement in Ukraine.  But we have 1.2 trillion in student loan debt. 50%,in default or deferment.  The cost of education has gone up 79% in the last decade and the US government is expected to make $ 184 billion in student loan payments.

A little perspective . . .

LOL. Yeah well, you can blame our ally, the surrender monkeys, for the war in Iraq. Had they not prevented to enforce what was already an authorized and approved UN resolution to have the Iraqi regime abide by its 1991 regulations, that war would not have happened. It is no coincidence than even today, despite the sanctions against Russia, France & Germany still openly do business with Russia.

I've already stated this from the onset of the Ukraine conflict, the US will be left hung out to dry again by those it considers its allies.

As for expenses, IMHO, I don't mind the money we spent for *DoD* and national security. I do have a problem seeing the majority of the half-a-trillion dollars per year for welfare and foreign aid, to me, is the waste. 300+ million, in the land of opportunity, literally half of the population is on some form of government-assisted social program. Legal residents or otherwise.

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/

[GQBlues]

Speaking on the theme of US intervention and meddling, I just read today that we (The US) have just told Uganda that we are not going to continue sending them money until they amend THEIR laws regarding homosexuality....

More on meddling...

After *Operation Viking Hammer* in Iraq...the same special force was sent to Liberia to covertly quell the ongoing massacre being committed under the leadership of Chuck Taylor that same year. No one knew about this deployment. It is just now being made available to the American public.

As one of the soldier remarked about what they encountered in Liberia when they arrived, the violent streets of Iraq is Disneyland compared to what was going on in the streets of Liberia at the time.

It's really time to abandon the United Nations. Let this world sort itself out. China, one of the SC nation, had always abstained and understandably considering they know this is just mere political hypocrisy. China was ignored and sacrificed to the Japanese aggression by France and the stupid League of Nations despite it's urgent plea for assistance leading up to the second WW. It was deemed at the time that Japan's invasion of China is a small price to pay and would mean it'll occupy Japan for a while.

Estimated deaths as a result of Japan's invasion of China: 14-20 million Chinese deaths (still debatable) and the world is largely ignorant of this number. Read: Rana Mitter's 'The Struggle for Survival'.   

Just as the so-called *liberation* of the Philippines. The US wanted to go to Formosa in its war against Japan. They didn't gave a hoot about the Philippines. Roosevelt abandoned 20,000+ US troops in Corregidor (still considered as the US Army biggest military defeat), along with 75,000 Filipino guerilla fighters (Bataan Death March) because he thought best to aid the Europeans first when we entered WWII since that was what he always wanted to do even before Pearl Harbor and despite Japan being the country that attacked us. It took 4 long years before the landing in Leyte. Even then, it was MacArthur's bidding to *help* and go through the Philippines - not Roosevelt.

BBB - The Battling Bastards of Bataan.

The US liberated France from Nazi Germany only to eventually have these guys sell us out time and again.

[The Natural]

I've already stated this from the onset of the Ukraine conflict, the US will be left hung out to dry again by those it considers its allies.

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/

Let's hope you're right. Europe has so much more to lose than the US on a trade war not to mention a real war. Maybe that's what Putin is waiting for, that the Europeans decide to distance themselves from the war-like steps of Washington.