Using a guide in Ukraine? Be careful!

[Makkin]

Mir,

  Please message me (address) and I will have your choice of beer delivered to any location inside the 48 but... If you desire I will send it to any point of the globe.... Hope you are a fair man on this..lol

  I really appreciate your help as well as all the people here. The ability to learn from all posts is good. I'm glad I found this place.

Makkin

[Stirlitz]

I guess that if Pavel were impeccable it would be suspicious. There is a saying that exceptions from a rule only confirm the rule. So, if there are many people happy with Pavel, you can expect that there will be somebody not so happy. But just look at the ratio and make your conclusion.

Everybody makes mistakes, and there can be misunderstandings. While Kuna questions many aspects of Pavel’s behavior and actions, some people are surprised at Kuna. I made some conlcusions for myself and I think that others have learned something too. That is good.

Here is what I already knew but think should be highlighted.

1. Stay away from misers. They will give you more trouble than income. However transparent about prices you are, they can simply invent something you did not say ($80).
2. Never hesitate to make it clear how much you charge and what for, what your conditions are.
3. Always demand an answer to the question: “Do you accept my conditions?”
4. Make it clear who is the boss here. Don’t be too active without an express reason from your client.

I think this case explains Rule 1. I can give an example to Rules 2 and 3. This summer I had a short job. An acquaintance of mine asked me to interpret for her. She was going to meet a man in Odessa. This is not the way I like it, I prefer to be contacted by the one who pays first, but I still decided to try. When they met, he ran up to her and started greeting, hugging, kissing her, etc, so it would look awkward to interrupt with money matters. They did not stop. So I decided I would wait till the end. He looked like a gentleman, was kind and polite and I assumed it would not be a problem and I should not interrupt a nice talk with my price rubbish. In the meantime I was thinking what rate to use. To make sure he would not cry rip-off I decided to go safe and use the rate that THE ONE is often quoting here. It is $8 to $10 and as I am not a bad interpreter and it was only four hours, I thought I could use $10. While I actually charge more. To my surprise, four hours later, when we were parting, he quickly gave me a UAH50 bill ($10) and was about to go. I had to stop him. It took him 15 minutes to tell me that he had never paid more than $2.5 an hour for an interpreter (in fact, I also charged this — 8 years ago when I started to work, but this was summer of 2006 rather than 1999) and that he had a cute female interpreter here in Odessa who was also his secretary and did more than I could do for him (his winking at that looked disgusting), and that he could find a bunch of interpreters at this rate, and so on. I was not going to let him go though so he eventually paid me my UAH200 and left. So, was it a rip-off? Yes, I think so — an attempt on his part though. I would expect him to at least ask how much I charged before giving me anything. Even after that any dickering over the price would look mean, especially considering the fair price, but he did not even bother to ask!

I am not going to be misguided by looks and a kind air again — I am going to announce my rates and conditions before I budge and leave if the other party does not expressly say “Yes”. As we say in Russian, it will turn out more expensive for yourself. Pavel should have refused to help Kuna as soon as he realized what kind of a person Kuna was.

So, everybody draws their conclusions.

Anyway.

Unless Kuna wants to go through my points and refute each of them in a convincing non-emotional way (which would be quite different from his earlier posts), I suggest that we leave it at that. I remember Dan was urging me to give up a topic because ‘many people wanted me to’ or something like this. As I don’t want him to be unhappy with me, I say this myself: let it go. Everything is clear now. No need to go on bickering.

Well one thing that does not hold water is that gasoline prices have actually gone down c/w 6 months ago.

One thing is for sure: a year ago gas was 2.70 a liter, now it is 3.60. The price was fluctuating over 2006 but eventually rising. I remember very well that in June or July it was about 3.30. It has reached a record of 4.60 since then but later went down.

And the problem is once petrol prices go up, the rest of the prices follow them in a while. But even if gas drops back to its price or close to it (more realistically) later, the others are not in a hurry to follow.

You must be bored , to write all this

Sometimes it happens. I just like finding out the truth. And I type nearly as quickly as I talk, so it did not take me much longer than you to read it.

And, as the original subject was ‘Using a guide in Ukraine? Be careful!’, I just could not stay away. If it had been ‘Pavel’ instead of ‘guide’, might be. But Kuna is casting aspersions on all Ukrainian guides, including me, so as a guide, I was forced to come up and put it right.

[Son of Clyde]

I really think Pavel should be invited to this thread to defend himself.
A lot of allegations have been made.
It could be a matter of him becoming more organized and providing a detailed ledger sheet of his expenses up front.
This is not an unreasonable request.
In his attempts to provide quality service I believe Pavel is looking out for his client. And after all, a guide is there to guide you not to sit with you in your apartment. He is there to show you around Kiev.
Pavel is not unreasonable and I believe he can make adjustments in the future. I used another person, Alexander Zubkov, the first time and I had my doubts about him. He was so organized he seemed to be obsessive compulsive. There are extremes to this guide business.

[Mir]

Igor

As you live in Ukraine and I don't I am sure you are correct about the gas prices.
However that still can't explain a jump from $80 to $140 that is a 75% increase.
In January someone I know went to Ukraine.He hired a taxi from Borispol to Kermenchug which is 273 Km and hence much further then where Kuna went and he paid 600 Hr or $120. So a $140 price is a rip-off.

Makkin

Thanks but I would like draught beer from the tap so I will wait for the right time:)
I am likely to be in Kiev end of March.Are you in Ukraine at that time?

[Admin]

Igor

As you live in Ukraine and I don't I am sure you are correct about the gas prices.
However that still can't explain a jump from $80 to $140 that is a 75% increase.
In January someone I know went to Ukraine.He hired a taxi from Borispol to Kermenchug which is 273 Km and hence much further then where Kuna went and he paid 600 Hr or $120. So a $140 price is a rip-off.

Makkin

Thanks but I would like draught beer from the tap so I will wait for the right time:)
I am likely to be in Kiev end of March.Are you in Ukraine at that time?

Re: Trip from Kyiv to Kremenchug (my wife's hometown). Autolux trip of 4.5 hours = 50Hr. (about $10 USD)

You can find the Autolux website, schedule, prices, and booking - and MANY other travel options, in the RWD Wiki.

FWIW

- Dan

[Admin]

Further FWIW,

Kyiv to Dniepropetrovsk via Autolux - 75 Hr.

I have written about this before. Having travelled extensively throughout Ukraine via bus, private auto, train, and domestic airline - my preference for MOST (not all) trips is the AutoLux buses. They are comfortable, fast, and safe.

I do NOT like to take the bus for trips longer than about 300 km - stretching it a little more on occasion, but 300 km is my personal guideline. Beyond 300 km, I try to take domestic flights. So, for instance, Kyiv to Crimea (Simferopol) would be via plane.

I also am not fond of the typical problems of train travel - the toilets and the incessant clanging. I *will* take certain trains - such as the Grand Wagon from Kyiv to Lviv, any time I make that trip, but normally the problems of train travel dissuade me.

Just my personal take on things.

FWIW

- Dan

[Mir]

SOC

I once rented an apartment from Alexander Zubkov.
His rents were quite low but the apartment was in need of repair.
I never asked him(or anyone else) to be my guide.

[Son of Clyde]

Mir,
Alex gave me transportation to and from the airport and rented me two flats. He owns maybe 3 apartments and seems to be constantly on the move. I found him to be a bit pompous. He is an attorney and studied in the US and seems to be an elitist.
Pavel is down to earth and I found him much easier to communicate with.
Alex thought all UW who met AM were loose women. He was rather chauvinistic in general. The second apartment he rented me was not one of his own (his were booked up the last 2 days of my stay) and I was locked out several times because the owner did not repair the front door lock. It was early November of 2003 and rather cold to be standing outside.
I am writing this to let others know that not every guide or apartment owner is perfect.

[Son of Clyde]

I sent Pavel a instant message in ICQ before I left for work this morning directing him to this thread. I am hoping he will come in and make a statement. I think from what Kuna has posted, if Pavel were to draft a contract outlining his services and fees it would be very helpful. Before I met Pavel we had communicated a number of times and he was always extremely friendly calling me buddy and pal. I really think he is genuine and trying to make a living like everyone else. Kiev is not much different from any other major European city, it is expensive compared to the small villages.

[Mir]

SOC

Did you get a chance to meet Alex's wife?

[Vaughn]

Clyde,

  I'm beginning to find your avatar maddening. I ditched
the two-legged horse (but enjoy jb's 4-legged mare).
How about something fresh, buddy?

  I'm another waiting for Pavel to show up.

Kuna,

  I hadn't mentioned how much I've enjoyed your trip report
from the very first page. Keep it coming.

Vaughn

[KenC]

My take on all of this is simple. Did Pavel up charge for services? You betcha.  That is how he makes his money and should be expected.  One of his responsibilities is to make sure his client doesn't get raped financially on the transactions, and he did that.  A few extra dollars in his pocket is better than grossly overpaying for services.  The fact that he said he could get the "best" prices may have been overstated, but so what?  Kuna got where he wanted to go and Pavel did come through and got the apartment needed in the end.  You get what you pay for in this world mostly.  It doesn't seem to me that Pavel abused his charges for the service he provided.  The "extra" charges are chump change and well worth the peace of mind that he had Kuna's back while in Ukraine.  I also think that Kuna was playing a lot of his trip spontaneously and that is a lot more complicated than the usual client.  The usual would have come into the city, rent a flat, stay there for the duration of the trip, and use Pavel for some guidance around the city.

I have always heard that Pavel was a very good guide.  That doesn't mean that his quality of service hasn't dropped in quality recently. In all that Kuna wrote about Pavel, the one thing I would have taken exception to was when Pavel showed up early to give him the "bums rush" so as to be able to savor his Micky D's breakfast.  That was the time for Kuna to put his foot down and set Pavel straight on who's (Kuna's) best interest was a priority.

When using guides or interpreters, it is up to you to communicate just what it is that you expect from them and what is your goals for the trip and even for the day or the specific meeting.  They are tools to be used to accomplish your goals.  If you do not communicate the goal to them, they have to guess or assume what it is that you want to accomplish and they aint mind readers.  I think that most guys going over only have a vague idea of what they want to do specifically, so they allow themselves to be led by the hand in a child like manner.  And that too is OK for those type of men.  They basically get what they probably need and wouldn't know what to do otherwise.  Guides like Pavel and Igor have seen hundreds of men like this, I am sure.  They probably know what these guys need better then the guys do themselves.

I had two interpreters/guides assigned to me by the agency when I went to Russia. The first few days they led me around like a 12 year old, which was fine because I was just getting the lay of the land.  But once I felt comfortable, I changed the arrangement to doing things my way, not their's.  I took control of the situation. We did what I wanted and when I wanted to do it.  I was supposed to have 24/7 coverage with these two and I did.  I am sure I was not their usual client as I had them do things that were out of the ordinary for them.  But again, they were being paid to service me and if my service requests were unusual, too bad.  They never complained, but told me a few times "I have never done this before."  Again, so what?

Some of the unusual things I had them do:

Coordinate a Xmas fruit basket for Lena's family-I had them take me shopping for cheeses, salami's, wine, candy and fresh fruit and then to a florist to wrap everything pretty for them to deliver to Lena's flat.  No one ever really got a grasp of what I was trying to do here (including Lena's parents) but it was a huge hit and the tradition explained later.

Coordinate a romantic dinner at my flat for Lena- This too seemed strange to them, but I knew exactly what I wanted to accomplish and did so.  At first the terps said the only "take out" food available was pizza.  LOL  Nope, not what I had in mind.  I had them negotiate with a nice restaurant to prepare a full course sit down dinner for two including the serving dishes and tableware delivered at a specific time by the terp.  Earlier I had them shop with me for table clothes, candles and flowers.  Music was provided by my portable CD player and mini speakers. (This wasn't my first rodeo)

Trip to Moscow-This might not fall into the "unusual" category, but I bring it up for another purpose.  I had a "dead" day in my trip.  Lena was taking a final exam at her university, so I had one of the terps take me to Moscow sight seeing.  We were supposed to take the train, but the terp was late and we missed it after running through the train station like idiots.  She then told me "it's OK we can take the bus and it is better." BULLSH!T  The friggen bus was packed like sardines, smelled like a pigsty and must have been 120 degrees.  The German Shepard in the next seat was also a treat.  On the comfortable train ride home, while sipping tea and eating a bowl of soup in the dinnig car, I calmly communicated my displeasure to the terp that had put me through the miserable bus ride.  At the end of the trip I also explained to her that her tip would had been substantially more if it weren't for her error.

You have to demand control of your own situation.
KenC

[Michelangelo]

Excellent post, KenC.  On target in reading the situation, and excellent sugestions for the newbie.

[Stirlitz]

KenC raises some good points which are basically similar to my ideas. Be in control of the situation!

However that still can't explain a jump from $80 to $140 that is a 75% increase.

In fact, it’s easy to explain. You do not seem to have read the thread from the beginning. $80 is a figure invented by Kuna. Pavel did not quote it to him, at least not recently. There might have been a mistake/confusion/misunderstanding about it but if we do not consider such things I am sure that Pavel would not quote $80. Kuna has yet to prove it with an e-mail from Pavel, and Pavel has to confirm it. Somehow I don’t think it’s going to happen.

[El Rock]

KenC raises some good points which are basically similar to my ideas. Be in control of the situation!

[/color]

Yes , of course  KenC's was right on and your's  as well.
Take control  and giude the guide  .
It's a no brainer , for most , like 90%

[Son of Clyde]

SOC

Did you get a chance to meet Alex's wife?

No, but I met Pavel's wife. She is a lovely woman.
I feel sorry for Alex's wife, unless she is a strong woman.

Vaughn, let me see what I can come up with in the avatar department.

[Mir]

Well Alex has quite a pretty wife considering you know what I mean.....

[Stirlitz]

Take control  and giude the guide

No. Guides do not need to be guided. However, they have to know what you want to be able to guide you there. Express your desires, do not let them guess and wander on their own. That is what I mean by saying ‘take control’.

I hope you got it now.

If you take the time to read and try to understand Kuna's post, you will probably find as I did that even he doesn't really know what really went wrong with his business arrangements. 

[Turboguy]

Just as a little comment here that is not pointed at either side of this, just something I wanted to say.

It seems to me that with a compentent guide, you should not have to "TAKE CONTROL".   That a good guide should ask when you need him and be there very close to the time you requested.   If he deviates he should call and say, I will be late or can I come early so we can work out or plans or so I can help you get breakfast.

Again I am not siding with anyone or opposing anyone, but stating what I would expect from a good guide.   If I had to "take control" with someone I was working with, I would sooner not work with him or her.

[BC]

Turbo,

You have probably experienced the 'I dunno what I really want' type of customer.. In your business you might feel like just handing him a garden hose.

Mix that with 'wrong tool' syndrome, by expecting a guide to provide travel agency services..

The key seems to be - Know what you want and use the right tools to get there.

I've fallen into this trap before with customers and learned that I can only effectively deal within my field of expertise.  Going beyond, even with good honest intentions of helping a customer will usually end up badly.

In this case, Kuna should have better defined his needs and Pavel should have referred him to a travel agency instead of sticking his neck out to be chopped.  This is the true lesson I hope both have learned.

[catzenmouse]

This has been a very informative read!

 My only experience with a "guide" was to hire the intrepeter from the travel agent I used to book my hotel to take me around to the museums and to take me shopping. I think it was around $10 or $12 an hour but that was a couple of years ago so I could be way off. It was well worth the price as I didn't have to try to translate every plaque in the museums and I only knew of a couple of local places to shop that I found while walking around.

 One thing I have seen here, which has been shown time and time again in the agency battle threads, is that you do not gain clients by bashing other service providers or by being argumentative. I would have thought that simple concept would have caught on by now but it seems that personality battles are often more important than sound business practices.

Damn though, it does make for entertaining reading!

Ken

[Stirlitz]

Why don’t we get back to the original message and leave quarrels behind? In my first message in this thread I urged anyone who disagreed with me to substantiate it. I have not gotten anything about that yet — only personal attacks on me and low tactics like editing out offensive comments.

as the original subject was ‘Using a guide in Ukraine? Be careful!’

…why don’t we just stick to it leaving personal attacks out?

Some people have to be asked repeatedly. Please stay on topic!

Dan may go ballistic again.

[Admin]

…why don’t we just stick to it leaving personal attacks out?

Some people have to be asked repeatedly. Please stay on topic!

Dan may go ballistic again.

Hey!

"ballistic" is decidely superior to 'non-linear'.   

- Dan

[William3rd]

Damn, guys- calm down already. I knew it was too quiet around here. . .


Trying to get the last word in or continuing to take shots at each other is counter productive to what you/me/us/they/he/she are trying to accomplish here.

I guess this is like a big sandbox . . . ..

[catzenmouse]

I guess this is like a big sandbox . . . ..

And sometimes a bit more like a cat's litterbox... 

Ken