Different perceptions of RW and UW

[I/O]

Wiz: Yeah I've been over most of Ukraine also and you'll take a lot of convincing me there is anything better there than in Russia.  But to each his own.

I/O

[Gator]

Wiz,

In making my sweeping conclusion, perhaps I did not consider all that you wrote.  I will examine precisely what you said and overlay my own experience.  

You said Russian women are:

Dull – Neither of the two RW that I know really well are boring. Far from it; both are entertaining and interesting.  This begs the question why you would meet a dull woman.

Expressionless faces – Russians are stoic people, especially in public.  However, this is not limited to RW.  All riders of the metro have long faces, whether in Kiev or Moscow.  I will agree that UW are more lively - some remind me of Latin and Mediterranean people.  

Secretive – Agree.   I think “suspicious” is a more accurate term than “secretive”.  As discussed many times, their suspicious nature reflects their long history.  

Very jealous – Did not observe this.  The women I dated seem to have huge confidence in themselves.  Also, I did nothing to make them jealous.  Even though RW are long on pride, not one balked when they learned I was meeting more than her on my trip.

Ignorant of good manners – Completely disagree.  I consider myself cultivated and well mannered.  Yet my Moscow lady commented about my “wrong” table manners and she was correct (I inadvertently left my fork at top of the plate while I was still eating, and I was impressed that she noticed).  My central Russian woman is equally well mannered and she considers  improper manners as an insult.  

Stubborn in their ignorance – 100% true for both RW that I know very well.  

Lacking social skills – You are wrong, dead wrong.

In general very insecure – You have to date a RW a long time to learn if this is her nature, because they will mask it with pride.  The two RW I know very well are very confident although both have mixed thoughts about the future.   Are you extrapolating from one woman?  Your Sofia seemed very insecure and I do not why you tolerated such because it is a not easily corrected trait.  I am happy to learn that she is gone, yet you have my sympathy for trying so hard to help her.

Not very pretty. Just plain Jane's – Why would you fly all the way to Russia to date an ordinary woman?  I think they are beautiful women,  although most do not age so well (stress, diet, lifestyle, lack of good cosmetics and no nip and tuck).  When looking around the hordes of Russians at beaches in Turkey and Egypt, I wonder why their legs get shorter as they grow older.

You wrote that Ukrainian women are:

Very attractive – Yes, but not more than RW.

Show overt sexuality – You and I may have different standards.  Frankly, I consider many of the UW to dress trashy with skin and flesh in full view.  Both of my RW have bodies to die for, and with the proper fashion they are more sexy to me than if their breasts were spilling over or their hemline were one inch below their nickers.  

Fashion conscientious – My two RW could run circles around most any UW (my claimcould be unfair because one was a fashion model in Germany and Austria for 14 years, and the other is from Moscow)

Very secretive – We are in agreement, and UW may be even worse as you indicate, considering their history.

Very jealous – They may be more jealous than RW.  One UW refused to see me when she learned I was doing a WMVM trip.  And another was hurt when she examined my passport and noticed multiple trips to Russia.   Again, I did nothing when with them to make them jealous.

Better manners – I met some UW with good manners, yet the most abhorrent manners were displayed by a UW medical doctor who chewed long strips of meat while it dangled from her fork.  Egad!!!  Manners are more than table etiquette, so perhaps you have a more comprehensive view.  FSU people are not Thai people, nor are they Middle Eastern – somewhere between the two.  I still laugh at a scene in an Egyptian airport when the check-in of our charter flight to Moscow was moved from one counter to another. What had been a line became a rugby scrum.  The Egyptian agent was upset, almost as much as the Russians, because people were so packed he could not service even those up front .  The Russians claimed it was his fault for changing counters, and the Egyptian replied, “No, it is Russian mentality!”

Never say please or thank you, same as their Russian sisters – Agree that neither is good with the courteous “thank you”.  They are trainable.  If you do something special, they will express much gratitude.   Interesting that “please” and “you are welcome” are the same word in Russian.

Not afraid to use sex as a matter of course to achieve what they want and of course more accessible – Did not notice a difference between UW and RW.  

[SANDRO43]

(Sorry guys I dunno how to get more than 1 photo in the 1 post)

I/O, after you attach the 1st photo and before clicking Save, click Preview and you'll see you can attach another, and so on. Alternatively, after you Save, you can add other attachments if you Modify your post.

[wiz]

Gator

It appears to me that we agree in most comments as you outlined them in your post with very small differences. I used one word to describe the various aspects of RW and UW, where you expanded so I will answer one by one:

Gator

In making my sweeping conclusion, perhaps I did not consider all that you wrote.  I will examine precisely what you said and overlay my own experience.

I noticed that you based most of your comments to the two RW you know….. but that is not important as of course you met other women. 

You said Russian women are:

Dull – Neither of the two RW that I know really well are boring. Far from it; both are entertaining and interesting.  This begs the question why you would meet a dull woman.

Do you really think you able to know the character of  a RW before you meet her, just only for her letters and telephone conversations? Somehow I don’t think so.

Expressionless faces – Russians are stoic people, especially in public.  However, this is not limited to RW.  All riders of the metro have long faces, whether in Kiev or Moscow.  I will agree that UW are more lively - some remind me of Latin and Mediterranean people.

We agree on that one but I did not see much in private either and is very difficult to make them smile!

Secretive – Agree.   I think “suspicious” is a more accurate term than “secretive”.  As discussed many times, their suspicious nature reflects their long history.

Agreed too.

Very jealous – Did not observe this.  The women I dated seem to have huge confidence in themselves.  Also, I did nothing to make them jealous.  Even though RW are long on pride, not one balked when they learned I was meeting more than her on my trip.

No I have not tried to make them feel jealous also but they show right from the start “ownership” they call it and they are very possessive. Sorry we differ here.

Ignorant of good manners – Completely disagree.  I consider myself cultivated and well mannered.  Yet my Moscow lady commented about my “wrong” table manners and she was correct (I inadvertently left my fork at top of the plate while I was still eating, and I was impressed that she noticed).  My central Russian woman is equally well mannered and she considers  improper manners as an insult.

Sorry but with one or two exceptions all RW women I met have shown no good table or behaviour manners. No I am not the perfect gentleman and maybe lacking finesse but I think in a female company I am well mannered.

Stubborn in their ignorance – 100% true for both RW that I know very well.

We agree in something else too!

Lacking social skills – You are wrong, dead wrong.

In general very insecure – You have to date a RW a long time to learn if this is her nature, because they will mask it with pride.  The two RW I know very well are very confident although both have mixed thoughts about the future.   Are you extrapolating from one woman?  Your Sofia seemed very insecure and I do not why you tolerated such because it is a not easily corrected trait.  I am happy to learn that she is gone, yet you have my sympathy for trying so hard to help her.

Your experiences are different from mine. My observations and comments are not based on Sofia. Sofia was something else and my answer to your question is : Infatuation…..and at least I can claim that I have tried my best and my failure was not down to me, bloody old fool! In my last trip via Moscow I met something very promising on the flight……but I will refrain from saying anything at the moment. Sofia is reading the board and she has started to do exactly the same as my ex- GF did. She has picked up some old e-mails from previous women and she is writing around but only one answered to her and she gave her a good lecture.
 

Not very pretty. Just plain Jane's – Why would you fly all the way to Russia to date an ordinary woman?  I think they are beautiful women,  although most do not age so well (stress, diet, lifestyle, lack of good cosmetics and no nip and tuck).  When looking around the hordes of Russians at beaches in Turkey and Egypt, I wonder why their legs get shorter as  they grow older.

Sorry but I am not looking for an Arm Candy or a Trophy wife. I look for an attractive woman, with traditional values, ordinary as you say, to have as my partner and create a happy family. Her character is more important to me and not her beauty but most men from your side of the pond going for the first type. Sofia, for me, was attractive enough and with little effort I transformed a country bumpkin to an elegant woman, in my eyes. Sorry but I avoid the model types of women, as they say in Greece they are only for looking and for the others. I want a woman only for me.

You wrote that Ukrainian women are:

Very attractive – Yes, but not more than RW.

The climate must have something to do with the RW but UW come across as more attractive to me.

Show overt sexuality – You and I may have different standards.  Frankly, I consider many of the UW to dress trashy with skin and flesh in full view.  Both of my RW have bodies to die for, and with the proper fashion they are more sexy to me than if their breasts were spilling over or their hemline were one inch below their knickers.

Sorry I am not talking about tarts…. But nicely dressed UW.

Fashion conscientious – My two RW could run circles around most any UW (my claim could be unfair because one was a fashion model in Germany and Austria for 14 years, and the other is from Moscow)

Anybody who has gone to Independent Square in Kiev, or watched the women parading in the centre of Lviv, Sevastopol, Odessa and many other places will say something different from you.

Very secretive – We are in agreement, and UW may be even worse as you indicate, considering their history.

Agreed

Very jealous – They may be more jealous than RW.  One UW refused to see me when she learned I was doing a WMVM trip.  And another was hurt when she examined my passport and noticed multiple trips to Russia.   Again, I did nothing when with them to make them jealous.

Ownership comes to it again…..

Better manners – I met some UW with good manners, yet the most abhorrent manners were displayed by a UW medical doctor who chewed long strips of meat while it dangled from her fork.  Egad!!!  Manners are more than table etiquette, so perhaps you have a more comprehensive view.  FSU people are not Thai people, nor are they Middle Eastern – somewhere between the two.  I still laugh at a scene in an Egyptian airport when the check-in of our charter flight to Moscow was moved from one counter to another. What had been a line became a rugby scrum.  The Egyptian agent was upset, almost as much as the Russians, because people were so packed he could not service even those up front .  The Russians claimed it was his fault for changing counters, and the Egyptian replied, “No, it is Russian mentality!”

Don’t judge from one woman only….. and the same happened in Kos, as I mentioned in my trip report there last June with Olga. Amazing how they Russians swamp the desk, after the orderly Brits finished………and it took over 1 1/2 hour before Olga came through.

Never say please or thank you, same as their Russian sisters – Agree that neither is good with the courteous “thank you”.  They are trainable.  If you do something special, they will express much gratitude.   Interesting that “please” and “you are welcome” are the same word in Russian.

Yes they are trainable but the fact remains that it is not in their nature or custom to say it!

Not afraid to use sex as a matter of course to achieve what they want and of course more accessible – Did not notice a difference between UW and RW.   

Mistake and totally agree.

[Gator]

When I wrote earlier, "I disagree with almost everything you say", I made my conclusion after a quick read.  Upon my elaboration and your feedback it is clear that I was wrong.  I will not tally the items, yet we may actually agree more than we disagree.  Except I still contend there is no difference between UW and RW.

Now it is up to you to find a well mannered RW/UW, who amuses you and finds you so special that she smiles.  They are out there. 

If you also want a woman who is not jealous, I guess you will need to take even more time.  Yet, they are out there.  I suppose those women who are not the jealous-type are that way because because they are independent and competent.  Accordingly, they will not tolerate any jealousy from you, particularly anything that they deem as controlling.

If you also want one that has already been trained to say "thank you", that will take some time.  And if you want one who is not suspicious or stubborn, you need to look in another region of the world.  Good luck with your search.

[wiz]

When I wrote earlier, "I disagree with almost everything you say", I made my conclusion after a quick read.  Upon my elaboration and your feedback it is clear that I was wrong.  I will not tally the items, yet we may actually agree more than we disagree.  Except I still contend there is no difference between UW and RW.

Now it is up to you to find a well mannered RW/UW, who amuses you and finds you so special that she smiles.  They are out there. 

If you also want a woman who is not jealous, I guess you will need to take even more time.  Yet, they are out there.  I suppose those women who are not the jealous-type are that way because because they are independent and competent.  Accordingly, they will not tolerate any jealousy from you, particularly anything that they deem as controlling.

If you also want one that has already been trained to say "thank you", that will take some time.  And if you want one who is not suspicious or stubborn, you need to look in another region of the world.  Good luck with your search.

Gator

Thank you for your reply and as I said many times I am not an oil paint or a shrinking violet.

Sofia was not a normal typical Russian woman. I am sure there is a nice woman out there for me somewhere who is not Mrs perfect but she is much better to live with than Sofia. Sure I can tolerate certain jealousy and not give her reasons, train her to say please and thank you, teach her good mannerisms and make her smile and finally train her in the art of making love......

I do not loose heart easily and I will continue looking.

[DKMM]

I do say, why is it that Russians cannot queue?  You'd think they would have learned with those years of waiting in bread lines.

fwiw i love the stubborness...

[Nat]

I do say, why is it that Russians cannot queue?  You'd think they would have learned with those years of waiting in bread lines.

fwiw i love the stubborness...

Btw, about queue! You know, I was really culturally surprised, when I was in the supermarket in Czech There was a queue there, and people, who'd forgotten to take something they need, were just leaving the queue and then coming back to stand at the end of the queue. Is it normal in western countries? Here if you've forgotten something you can ask your queue neighbor to hold your place to be able to return to your place, without starting queuing once again

Hm, and what does “fwiw” mean?

[DKMM]

Nat,
That must be a continental practice.  Here in the states as well as from what I've seen in the UK, you may ask and have your space held by the person behind you.  Sometimes though I feel obligated to go to the back of the line when leaving it was my own fault and I feel like I deserve to start the process over.  A queue in America is different in that people often have a great deal of space between each other.

fwiw "for what its worth" which is another useless idiom that is not too different than "btw".

oh and fwiw I would not consider Czech to be western. 

[groovlstk]

You folks need to read Ivan Tikhonov's line-cutting tips

http://www.exile.ru/2002-November-13/ivan_tikhonovs_linecutting_tips.html

My favorite part:

There are two ways to subvert a line in Russia. One is through boldness. Girls will often move to the front left of a line and push their way in - no Russian man will deny her. He instinctively holds out the small hope that he might be able to sleep with her. In any case, if he raises a fuss, he DEFINITELY won't be able to sleep with her, while other men will inevitably come to her defense in the hope that their chivalry will lead to sex. The important thing in line-waiting is to take advantage of people's good will or naivete. Russian girls are excellent at this.

[Zhena]

You folks need to read Ivan Tikhonov's line-cutting tips

http://www.exile.ru/2002-November-13/ivan_tikhonovs_linecutting_tips.html

My favorite part:

There are two ways to subvert a line in Russia. One is through boldness. Girls will often move to the front left of a line and push their way in - no Russian man will deny her. He instinctively holds out the small hope that he might be able to sleep with her. In any case, if he raises a fuss, he DEFINITELY won't be able to sleep with her, while other men will inevitably come to her defense in the hope that their chivalry will lead to sex. The important thing in line-waiting is to take advantage of people's good will or naivete. Russian girls are excellent at this.

IMHO-not true and even silly.

[55North]

...as are probably most things in the Exile! (except War Nerd, who should be syndicated worldwide)

[Zhena]

Wiz,

In making my sweeping conclusion, perhaps I did not consider all that you wrote.  I will examine precisely what you said and overlay my own experience.  

You said Russian women are:

Dull – Neither of the two RW that I know really well are boring. Far from it; both are entertaining and interesting.  This begs the question why you would meet a dull woman.

Expressionless faces – Russians are stoic people, especially in public.  However, this is not limited to RW.  All riders of the metro have long faces, whether in Kiev or Moscow.  I will agree that UW are more lively - some remind me of Latin and Mediterranean people.  

Secretive – Agree.   I think “suspicious” is a more accurate term than “secretive”.  As discussed many times, their suspicious nature reflects their long history.  

Very jealous – Did not observe this.  The women I dated seem to have huge confidence in themselves.  Also, I did nothing to make them jealous.  Even though RW are long on pride, not one balked when they learned I was meeting more than her on my trip.

Ignorant of good manners – Completely disagree.  I consider myself cultivated and well mannered.  Yet my Moscow lady commented about my “wrong” table manners and she was correct (I inadvertently left my fork at top of the plate while I was still eating, and I was impressed that she noticed).  My central Russian woman is equally well mannered and she considers  improper manners as an insult.  

Stubborn in their ignorance – 100% true for both RW that I know very well.  

Lacking social skills – You are wrong, dead wrong.

In general very insecure – You have to date a RW a long time to learn if this is her nature, because they will mask it with pride.  The two RW I know very well are very confident although both have mixed thoughts about the future.   Are you extrapolating from one woman?  Your Sofia seemed very insecure and I do not why you tolerated such because it is a not easily corrected trait.  I am happy to learn that she is gone, yet you have my sympathy for trying so hard to help her.

Not very pretty. Just plain Jane's – Why would you fly all the way to Russia to date an ordinary woman?  I think they are beautiful women,  although most do not age so well (stress, diet, lifestyle, lack of good cosmetics and no nip and tuck).  When looking around the hordes of Russians at beaches in Turkey and Egypt, I wonder why their legs get shorter as they grow older.

You wrote that Ukrainian women are:

Very attractive – Yes, but not more than RW.

Show overt sexuality – You and I may have different standards.  Frankly, I consider many of the UW to dress trashy with skin and flesh in full view.  Both of my RW have bodies to die for, and with the proper fashion they are more sexy to me than if their breasts were spilling over or their hemline were one inch below their nickers.  

Fashion conscientious – My two RW could run circles around most any UW (my claimcould be unfair because one was a fashion model in Germany and Austria for 14 years, and the other is from Moscow)

Very secretive – We are in agreement, and UW may be even worse as you indicate, considering their history.

Very jealous – They may be more jealous than RW.  One UW refused to see me when she learned I was doing a WMVM trip.  And another was hurt when she examined my passport and noticed multiple trips to Russia.   Again, I did nothing when with them to make them jealous.

Better manners – I met some UW with good manners, yet the most abhorrent manners were displayed by a UW medical doctor who chewed long strips of meat while it dangled from her fork.  Egad!!!  Manners are more than table etiquette, so perhaps you have a more comprehensive view.  FSU people are not Thai people, nor are they Middle Eastern – somewhere between the two.  I still laugh at a scene in an Egyptian airport when the check-in of our charter flight to Moscow was moved from one counter to another. What had been a line became a rugby scrum.  The Egyptian agent was upset, almost as much as the Russians, because people were so packed he could not service even those up front .  The Russians claimed it was his fault for changing counters, and the Egyptian replied, “No, it is Russian mentality!”

Never say please or thank you, same as their Russian sisters – Agree that neither is good with the courteous “thank you”.  They are trainable.  If you do something special, they will express much gratitude.   Interesting that “please” and “you are welcome” are the same word in Russian.

Not afraid to use sex as a matter of course to achieve what they want and of course more accessible – Did not notice a difference between UW and RW.  

All that is the personal skills and doesnt depend from where the girl is. To make the generalizations,at least, is too fast decision All you described-I disagree with that. You can meet that as in russia as in ukraine.

[SANDRO43]

That must be a continental practice.  Here in the states as well as from what I've seen in the UK, you may ask and have your space held by the person behind you.

Generalisations, generalisations . I AM on the Continent and our practice is the same as in the US/UK. The basic principle is that of courtesy (asking for the favour, and NOT holding up the queue unreasonably long).

[Gator]

Hi Zhenna,

If you are saying there is no difference between a UW and a RW, then we agree. I certainly can not tell a UW from a RW.


My long post was responding to another long post by a man who notices a stark difference between the two.

[El Rock]

I have clearly experienced a difference.
As I stated before , and I have  heard    or read    that others agree  to the  difference  , too.

[Kuna]

I have clearly experienced a difference.
As I stated before , and I have  heard    or read    that others agree  to the  difference  , too.

Geez Rock...  Your post made me want to go back and read your opinion (Why I don't know....) and I went back through 13 pages and didn't see any posts from you.  Did I miss it in this thread or are your opinions hidden elsewhere...

What do you think the differences are dude?


It's been interesting to watch this thread meander it's way to no ultimate agreement.  I finding it hard to believe there is any generalisation that can be substantiated or defended. Russia in itself is so diverse so how can anyone say RW and different from UW when it's also true that girls from Ufa or Siberia are likely to be very different from girls in Moscow. We had a thread recently that asserted that Moscow women were different to women from other Russian cities so how can we lump all RW into a group that are different to all UW?

My girl is Ukrainian... born and bred... but she is adamant that she is RUSSIAN.  Where's that leave her in the eyes of those that think RW and UW are different???  A third subset?  It can get crazy!

I started this thread in the hope that we could agree that generalisations of all sorts are impossible to justify.  I know when I started my search I wanted to find the "secret spice".. that one gem of information that would help me understand everything, but the truth is we can't group women into sets that make much sense.

I think when we're searching we need to consider a girls personality and how it fits with our own personality. 

True?  I think so...

[wiz]

I think when we're searching we need to consider a girls personality and how it fits with our own personality. 

True?  I think so...

Kuna

Spoil of sport............left the cat out of the bag!
(That was the problem between me and Sofia...)
 

[Jazzyclassy]

No matter what others say I agree with Gator

though I see the difference between Ukrainian and Russian women. But that is already my personal observations and my private point of view

I am tired of this competition with these ukrainians,  there is nothing to compete with , those guys who are fond of ukrainian women will never look for Russian ones, and those ones who look and appreciate Russian women will never even go to that Ukraine and will never even have a slight desire to hit on those women......

 

[DKMM]

There is a difference.  Some UW don't mind having a little body odor, but I have yet to meet a RW that smells anything but clean.  Am I right?

[wiz]

No matter what others say I agree with Gator

though I see the difference between Ukrainian and Russian women. But that is already my personal observations and my private point of view

I am tired of this competition with these ukrainians,  there is nothing to compete with , those guys who are fond of ukrainian women will never look for Russian ones, and those ones who look and appreciate Russian women will never even go to that Ukraine and will never even have a slight desire to hit on those women......

 

Flower

Why you show your popa so early in the morning?

You let the political differences with the Ukrainians to cloud your vision. 

Oh!!! how I like hearing that Stileto (tic tak) on the pavements of Kyiv and then looking a sexily dressed beautiful UW coming towards me.

 

[Jazzyclassy]

Flower

Why you show your popa so early in the morning?

You let the political differences with the Ukrainians to cloud your vision. 

Oh!!! how I like hearing that Stileto (tic tak) on the pavements of Kyiv and then looking a sexily dressed beautiful UW coming towards me.

 

dear Wiz ahahahha

I am glad you love ukrainian women I hope they will  love you too:)

[wiz]

dear Wiz ahahahha

I am glad you love ukrainian women I hope they will  love you too:)

Oh yes they do because I am very good teacher......

[ScottinCrimea]

I suspect for El Rock the difference is in the taste.

[Gator]

There is a difference.  Some UW don't mind having a little body odor, but I have yet to meet a RW that smells anything but clean.  Am I right?

Are you pulling our leg?  I never noticed BO on any woman.  Perhaps you were visiting Ukraine in the summer when the central hot water plant was closed for its annual two-week maintanance.  Even then, women would bathe from a one-quart sauce pan.

I suspect for El Rock the difference is in the taste.

Too funny!