Money changes everything

[mischief]

Jazzy, I think you are a little immature in this field and you don't know this. That's ok, because you still have enough of years ahead of you to understand me. When you move to England and have a baby it will be a little more clear for you what I meant.

yep... yep.. yep..

[Daveman]

Not everything is ok in the mind of those people who say they don't care about money and are happy living in those conditions that I described, who don't strive to succeed in everything and in finances, who want to find a woman who would close her eyes on this ugliness and would 'love him only for who he is'. Well, in my eyes, he is at least a looser and a lazy guy.

This is really the only area where we disagree.  There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with the mind someone who doesn't place a high value on material wealth. You do say "In my eyes he is..." and again shows the underlying chasm between material and spiritual -- those "life's treasures".  Spiritual people would say there is something wrong with you, that you are a self serving egotistical mutant of some sort, just as you claim they are lazy losers. Of course neither is true. You simply have different definitions and/or priorities in the overall value systems.  Which is the point I tried to make several pages ago.

How we measure other people is based solely upon our own definitions.  Using those definitions we label them "losers", "winners", "good", "bad" etc... a matter of perspective.

for example -- to me, the indicator of intelligence is not a university education, or earning 6 figures, it's simply a spontaneous sense of humor because it is what I value above almost anything else.. a blazingly fast mind can conjure hilarious witticisms out of thin air in almost any situation - we measure by what we value most in descending order.  How high is "spontaneous sense of humor" on others' lists? Probably not very.

The average I.Q. of a post grad with Ph.D is 129 (I read this figure in Time Magazine about eight years ago, so perhaps it has changed, but certainly not by much).  I'd bet that is considerably low compared to many right here on this board.  Tenacity and elbow grease trumps intelligence in the business world almost every time and of course there is always at least a small element of luck.

What one would call laziness, another could define as being content and enjoying a simple life. Both are correct by applying the definitions of innate values.  Red carpets and pink bathrooms are not demonic by nature. They're simply paint and fibers. 

If a woman could not be satisfied living in the house I grew up in, I wouldn't give her a second thought.  That doesn't make her bad, but it does make her value system different enough that I know I could never love her.  I know I could never love someone I would consider overly materialistic. It just wouldn't happen.  Just like you couldn't love a man who did not have certain high materialistic values among others.

The values themselves are neither good nor bad, but matching them is the important aspect. Someone with a different value system is neither a winner nor loser, they simply are who they are.

Dave

[beachcomber556]

Each person must decide this issue, and all issues, for themselves.  We can beat this topic into the ground, and still there will remain as many viewpoints as there are people on this forum.  We all learn as we walk our chosen paths, hopefully.  None of us can fully understand another person until we have lived their life.  Each of us, the men and women that we are, are the sum total of our experiences in this journey we call life.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Thank you Gator, Mischief and others...

The thing is that I was once a very naive girl, there was one very serious relationship that i had before I married and came to the US. I was in the university, I was 21-22 and truly loved one guy who was a little younger than me going to another university. Our love shattered among other things at financial situation. Of course he didn't work and I was just starting. We both lived with our parents on the opposite sides of Moscow.

I got a wake up call pretty well then and swore to myself that there should be at least a tiny grain of wisdom in my approach instead of being happy wearing those pink glasses and then crashing so badly. I also thought before that the most important thing and the only thing is that a man himself should be good for you and thought i was making right decision, but i was wrong.

For different people it takes different amount of time and bad lessons to change their approach and thinking. I am blessed that it happened to me relatively soon because i can be stubborn too. 

To each his own...

[myrddin]

First, I want to thank KenC for starting this thread.  Like many men, I want to find the girl of my dreams and marry her.  I don't know if she is FSUW, but it is a fascinating experience to discover how strongly the ladies of an entire part of the world seem to share my own core values.  And I freely admit that I'm prejudging RW as intelligent and straightforward.  Certainly the ladies on this forum have done nothing to discourage my stereotype

This topic speaks directly to my own experience as I consider how best to proceed in my search for true love.  In my marriage to an AW, our problem was our differing *attitudes* towards finances and money.  Neither was wrong or right.  We just weren't quite right *for each other*.  Each person needs to find a good match for him or her.  My divorce left me with some financial problems to clear up, and I'd guess there are others with similar issues.  What I need to know is how this relates to the possibility of finding my future wife in FSU.

I'm wondering if "financial security" generally means something different to RW than to AW.  The term "financial security" has become a red flag to me with AW when it appears early on (say, in an online profile).  To me, it suggests she's more materialistic than I am.  But am I right in thinking that, to most RW, "financial security" really does just mean she wants someone who can pay the bills (and maybe still have caviar once in a while)?

[catzenmouse]

Each person must decide this issue, and all issues, for themselves.

In the end that is the truth for each person in how they live their life and how they go about this search for an international relationship/marriage.

We can beat this topic into the ground, and still there will remain as many viewpoints as there are people on this forum.  We all learn as we walk our chosen paths, hopefully.  None of us can fully understand another person until we have lived their life.  Each of us, the men and women that we are, are the sum total of our experiences in this journey we call life.

This, IMO, is one of the beauties of RWD. There are so many diverse opinions here that no matter what path you choose to take in your search there is someone here who can offer a bit of guidance and perhaps light a couple of the clue candles to illuminate the path forward.

Regarding the original topic: We are neither living in a trailer nor lighting our cigars with money but we are happy with our situation and we share the values that we believe are important. If I had encountered most of the opinions elaborated on here I would have given a quick "Thanks but no thanks" and moved on.

FWIW

[BC]

Back in my early 20's I started a family with little more than 3000 bucks from a car I sold in the US before returning to Germany.  Our transportation was limited to a bicycle with a seat on it to get the kids to kindergarten.  We walked a lot.   The next 20 years were difficult but with a heck of a lot of work, profitable enough to build a house here with cash and a decent stable business to cover remaining bills and not even look at the price column of good restaurant menu's.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that today, in my late 40's what I pulled off in my 20's would be impossible to replicate.  It would have been very irresponsible of me to start a family now without a solid, existing foundation to support us.

For a young AM/RW couple in their 20's I say yes, the future is your capital so build it together, even from scratch.  For the RW looking at interested AM (Typically in their mid 40's++) be advised that if the substance isn't already there, chances are it will be extremely difficult to achieve the substance, lifestyle and stability you desire. 

[AnastassiaAsh]

Daveman,

I won't put you in that category because I know you don't live in a trailer and you make more than 30K let's say. So I wouldn't worry if I were you but at the same time be realistic and charm ladies not only with your humour. It is all awesome but one needs more than that, and you got it! ok?  :angel: 

Christian people would understand me absolutely right. It's the same way when we have to marry only 'equally yoked', it doesn't mean that non-christian men are bad, it is just they are not for us, and vice versa.

[Misha]

For a young AM/RW couple in their 20's I say yes, the future is your capital so build it together, even from scratch.  For the RW looking at interested AM (Typically in their mid 40's++) be advised that if the substance isn't already there, chances are it will be extremely difficult to achieve the substance, lifestyle and stability you desire. 

Uh oh! This may turn yet again into another age thread However, the keywords are the "lifestyle and stability you desire." The question is measuring the desired lifestyle. I can understand a woman not wanting to live worse than she lived in Russia, but how can you gauge desired lifestyle?

[AnastassiaAsh]

For a young AM/RW couple in their 20's I say yes, the future is your capital so build it together, even from scratch.  For the RW looking at interested AM (Typically in their mid 40's++) be advised that if the substance isn't already there, chances are it will be extremely difficult to achieve the substance, lifestyle and stability you desire.  

Thank you, BC, this is exactly my point too! Most men who are looking for RW are not 25 or 28. Most of them were divorced before. There are more years behind them to save some more money than a graduate, and I hope more wisdom too. This is what I meant when I said there is a difference between a 35 y.o man making 100k and 55 y.o making 100k. In both cases this salary is more than excellent, but I would question a 55 y.o guy, he must have saved more during all these years. If a man is 45 and makes 30K, excuse me, there is something wrong there, and yes, in my humble opinion....

[BC]

Uh oh! This may turn yet again into another age thread However, the keywords are the "lifestyle and stability you desire." The question is measuring the desired lifestyle. I can understand a woman not wanting to live worse than she lived in Russia, but how can you gauge desired lifestyle?

gebaub,

This should be explored during the dating phase.  Family goals are extremely important.. without common goals the relationship will usually stagnate and die out.

Surely you are not proposing that simply providing a better standard of life than she had in FSU should be good enough?? Should one go to the extreme and calculate the lifestyle improvement of having big red tomatoes year round in the west or not having to stockpile potatoes to get through winter.

One thing I have learned extremely well .. it is that if I ever, ever made my wife feel as if she 'owed' me something for bringing her here she would walk back to RU barefooted in winter before accepting this concept.  -  and guess what.. she would be right!

[Misha]

Surely you are not proposing that simply providing a better standard of life than she had in FSU should be good enough?? Should one go to the extreme and calculate the lifestyle improvement of having big red tomatoes year round in the west or not having to stockpile potatoes to get through winter.

No, but Russian women can have unrealistic expectations: i.e. in Russia some think that every American is a millionaire. I was fortunate in that my wife's father lives in Europe so she knew what an average life in Europe was and had a good idea of what to expect from life in Canada. I do propose that men should find out what the "desired lifestyle" for a woman is and if a man gets any inkling that it is unrealistic, he should move on. Likewise, a woman should know what the man's expectations are and should be ready to drop him if he is living in his own fantasy world.

[SANDRO43]

The term "financial security" has become a red flag to me with AW when it appears early on (say, in an online profile)... But am I right in thinking that, to most RW, "financial security" really does just mean she wants someone who can pay the bills (and maybe still have caviar once in a while)?

For the interpretation of this and other typical FSUW profile expressions, you could have a look at our Russglish Glossary (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/mwiki/index.php?title=Russglish_Glossary) .

[Gator]

Gabaub,

but how can you gauge desired lifestyle?

You can not.   She does not know.  RW have no firsthand experience Western lifestyle choices such as a home in the suburbs with grass.   There expectations will change upon becoming adjusted.  All a man can do is to spend enough time to know his woman, to understand her values as well as her goals, and to feel if she is really committed to him.

There are clues.  Most of the FSU women I met lived in small, cramped apartments with many things needing to be replaced.  Yet, these women were proud of their home, decorating it with simple items, growing plants, keeping it tidy, and making it cozy.  I assert that such a woman will be happy with the home of her American husband if she is committed to him.   Now if that man decides to use his limited purchasing power to buy a new fishing boat rather than new appliances or new furniture, she will protest, and justifiably so if she did not participate in decision making.

BC,

if I ever, ever made my wife feel as if she 'owed' me something for bringing her here she would walk back to RU barefooted in winter before accepting this concept.  -  and guess what.. she would be right!

Making a woman feel indebted is not treating her as an equal partner.  RW have pride.  Besides, they are very smart (not just intelligent), make good decisions, and have other attributes that make them good partners in life.  

[BC]

I just love this one.... put it into RW context..
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[KenC]

Back in my early 20's I started a family with little more than 3000 bucks from a car I sold in the US before returning to Germany.  Our transportation was limited to a bicycle with a seat on it to get the kids to kindergarten.  We walked a lot.   The next 20 years were difficult but with a heck of a lot of work, profitable enough to build a house here with cash and a decent stable business to cover remaining bills and not even look at the price column of good restaurant menu's.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that today, in my late 40's what I pulled off in my 20's would be impossible to replicate.  It would have been very irresponsible of me to start a family now without a solid, existing foundation to support us.

For a young AM/RW couple in their 20's I say yes, the future is your capital so build it together, even from scratch.  For the RW looking at interested AM (Typically in their mid 40's++) be advised that if the substance isn't already there, chances are it will be extremely difficult to achieve the substance, lifestyle and stability you desire.  

Damn BC!
That is three brilliant posts in a row!
KenC

[Misha]

There expectations will change upon becoming adjusted.  All a man can do is to spend enough time to know his woman, to understand her values as well as her goals, and to feel if she is really committed to him.

I agree. If you find the right woman who is well-adjusted and mature, she will adjust her expectations and will judge her husband using criteria other than his bank accounts. However, the trick as you rightly state is to find the right woman.

[beachcomber556]

Gabaub is on the mark with this one.  It was a running joke between Vika and me about her marrying "a rich American".  She heard this repeatedly from her friends and family, even though she knew the truth.  I never hid my middle income, middle class status.  I grew up in a "Leave It To Beaver" home.  Ours is no different, except it is international.  Hopefully she is happy with this.  But, we both aspire to more and in time will have more, as long as no one rocks the boat.

[Misha]

This is a problem that is faced not only when WM marry RW. Immigrants from the FSU often say that their friends and relatives back home expect them to be already "rich" though like most immigrants they are hard at work trying to learn the language, get better jobs and starting their lives from scratch.

[AnastassiaAsh]

But, we both aspire to more and in time will have more, as long as no one rocks the boat.

I am glad to hear that, some may think it is too materialistic though. 

[mischief]

Gabaub,
 There expectations will change upon becoming adjusted.  All a man can do is to spend enough time to know his woman, to understand her values as well as her goals, and to feel if she is really committed to him.

totally agree..

[acrzybear]

Not everything is ok in the mind of those people who say they don't care about money and are happy living in those conditions that I described, who don't strive to succeed in everything and in finances, who want to find a woman who would close her eyes on this ugliness and would 'love him only for who he is'. Well, in my eyes, he is at least a looser and a lazy guy. Which is fine when he is alone.

HHmmmm, then I guess that would classify me as a loser.  This post may or may not be directed towards my earlier post-It doesn't matter as I am not looking at getting into a argument with AnastassiaAsh.  

AnastassiaAsh is a beautiful intelligent lady whom has experienced a lot in her life and I applaud her in that she knows what she wants and is unwilling to compromise her principles (one thing we do have in common).  I've done the whole 60-80 hour work week thing and the only thing it gave me was more responsibility, more work and more headaches.  The problem is the better you are at a job the more people ask/demand of you and you get into a never ending cycle.  I make the same amount of money as a Supervisor now as I did as a patrolman in California 6 years ago, but my quality of life is a lot better.

  I don't have to drive 1 1/2 -2 hours each way to and from work, I don't have the mortgage payment to a $350,000.00 house to worry about and I don't have to stress about how much overtime I have to work to get the money to do the things I want to do. I make the upper end of $50,000.00 range and life is alot better now then it was then. If I meet a lady and she doesn't like me because I am a Police Officer or she thinks I am stupid because I did not get a 4 year degree or that I don't wear the latest fashions then that's fine everyone is looking for different things in a partner.  Just because different people want different things in a partner doesn't make them good or bad-just human.

  The only things that I do have to offer are honesty, loyalty, stability, no debit and the attitude that my family's needs come before mine.  I am not rich, but I'm not living in a double wide either (that's right I's gots me the triple wide ), but I'm not living paycheck to paycheck, I have money in the bank and I have the ability to get more money by working overtime if I need it.

  Everyone wants different things out of life, myself-I am content with what I do and if I ever do get married or have children I can provide a good stable life for them (and to tie in another thread-I believe that is a strong man!)

  Now for the people that have the money and the time to spend with the family-My hat's off to you.  Different people have different criteria in what they want as a partner-some want money, some want stunning model quality looks and some just want a person that will stand next to them and grow old together.  
 
  

I personally would never ever keep the woman in the dark about his man if i see some questions and concerns. It is my job after all. I wouldn't want any woman to be on the seventh sky during courtship and then get into the *** later. After failure with only one K1 she has only a tiny chance of doing it again. At the same time it is also my job to warn a man if I see that a woman is interested in his money much more than she should be...Anastassia

 This shows what kind of person you are in that you are willing to help others avoid the negative parts of this whole endeavor.  You are truly a part of a dying breed and a class act.

  So again different people have different needs and expectations in what they want out of life. My final thought before I go forth to battle "evil doers" is to take a moment out of your hectic day and reflect on how truly fortunate you are and appreciate those closest to your heart.

 Have a good day folks and try to play nice with each other.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Bear, sorry if it looked like I am writing about you, but I didn't really have you in mind, I don't know you really.
I just wanted to say that no matter where you are at in life you have to go forward, progress, succeed more. I don't like people who sit there for a looooong time and just are comfortable and don't challenge themselves. Of course i would love to stop for a second and 'smell the roses' so to speak in this life, but  it happens oh so rarely.

Also, to everybody, if RW are so much better than AW, why do you think they do not have a right or even just a desire to live in a better house or a better car? If AW have all this and they are so much worse, surely you should be willing to give all this to RW who truly deserve it all. But no, it seems like all of you want both pure, honest and unmaterialistic woman AND do not want to appreciate it.  This smells abuse and torture. It reminds me of a thought that most AM searching for RW can't find or date AW simply because they don't have enough of money to pay for her in the restaurant or something like that...if AW dumped you why do you think RW won't? Just because living conditions there are worse....of course there are some RW who do not care at all, but there are definitely some who, yes, as Gator put it, have pride! it is pride but not boastfulness. Elders from this board will support me in this because they, as some humbly admitted it and not once, are not worth their wives. Because their Russian wives are beautiful, educated and smarter than them. Yes, it is true, I believe them...there is something to be truly proud of...

[Gator]

Bear,

The many RW I met were not looking to marry rich.  Perhaps I indirectly or unknowingly eliminated such women before I met them.   If the man were wealthy, well that would be frosting on the cake, just as if he were also well endowed.  Wonderful to have, but not necessary.

All expressed a desire for financial stability.  Financial stability does not mean a portfolio of corporate bonds laddered to mature over each of the next 15 years.  I gathered from my conversations about goals is that it meant not worrying.  Not about how to feed the children, not about healthcare for a sick parent, not about whether the husband had gambled away his wages, not about whether the bank would collapse, not about whether she would freeze and become ill from waiting for a winter bus, not about whether she would have to do something unpleasant at work to keep her job, etc. 

Your life as you described would eliminate the stress of worrying about these things and other stresses, Thus, you would meet the "money criterion" for many  RW.  Not all RW, especially now that the Russian economy is booming.  Yet many RW I believe would think that your lifestyle is peachy.  As you wrote, lifestyle is not as important as quality of life.

Now all you have to do is share the same values with her, have aligned goals, find each other interesting, communicate well, and ..... somehow touch her heart.
I forgot; there is the part about you getting your hairy ass back onto a plane.

My experience with how she changes after you marry her is zero.  My fiancee  visited here for two months and did her eyes ever get big.  The OMBs will have to explain how she adjusts and what changes to expect.

[BC]

I forgot; there is the part about you getting your hairy ass back onto a plane.
 

But do wax beforehand..