Russia is at it again!

[steviej]

Stevie,

Annexing Mexico would be an excellent resolution.  There are plans (scenarios) for this in a few desk US Government desk drawers..  Like US officials stated when the Georgia situation escalated.. 'just gotta dust them off'..

BC, I like the way you think ! .. LOL .. I'd still put my "invade Canada" plan ahead of Mexico, though. Mexico is too dry, and I think they might fight back harder. The Canadians I think will just passively accept their fate ..     We'll let them be the 51st state, or something. And they've got oil and farmland. Venezuela might be a good target. I don't think anyone would bother us if we invade Venezuela.  As long as we can enserf the locals, I'm for it.

[steviej]

Russia did that with Iraq. Does it matter what the distance is from another country that makes it justifyable? Is invading another country justifyable if the border is within 100 miles but not justifyable if it's 1000 miles? An invasion is an invasion.

Iraq is right next to Russia! Definitely Russian sphere of influence. Doesn't compare to Georgia <-> US thing. Now, does distance matter? It certainly does. The concept of legitimate spheres of influence is essential to have any sanity in foreign policy. Anything that happens in Canada is much more important to US than anything that could possibly happen in Georgia. But already the Vice President of the US is stating, "This will not stand". Now that is a threat if I've ever heard one. An insane threat. The US should start hostilities with Russia over Georgia ?? N.F.W. !!

Russia invaded Georgia to control the energy pipeline and prevent Georgia from entering NATO. Very simple.

Pretty good reasons in my book. That's actually a sane policy by Russia. The US response is insane.

But yet people are so gullible to actually believe their leaders when they stand up in front of a camera and say it was justified to prevent genocide. People are such fools to believe the propaganda.

I am likewise astonished at how much propaganda, especially Americans, swallow without even a burp. People seem to have forgotten already that the famous "Golf of Tonkin" attack by the "enemy North Vietnamese" on an American destroyer was faked by the US, and used by Johnson to get congress to grant him war powers. 55,000 dead, 160,000 seriously wounded. For nothing. Now we've 4000+ US dead, 20,000 seriously wounded (a statistic that is always missing from reports, b.t.w.)and what, some 200,000 Iraqi civilian casualties?

Would the US bullsh*t us all over about Georgia, Iran, and wherever to start more hostilities? yes, they would, and do. It makes me beyond disgusted.

[William3rd]

This just popped into my email box from a former advisor to Bill Clinton:


Russia's Invasion Same as Hitler's

Monday, August 11, 2008 11:44 AM

By: Dick Morris & Eileen McGann 
 
On Oct. 3, 1938, Adolf Hitler's armies marched into Sudetenland, a part of Czechoslovakia. Germany said it was responding to separatist demands from the large German population that lived there and that she was merely honoring their desire for reunion with Germany.


Hitler's tanks took over a vital part of an independent country that had largely rejected his overtures and allied itself with the West. Neither Britain nor France nor the United States did a thing to stop him.


On Aug. 7, 2008, Vladimir Putin's armies marched into South Ossetia, a part of Georgia. Russia said it was responding to separatist demands from the large Russian population that lived there and that she was merely honoring their desire for reunion with Russia.


Putin's tanks took over a vital part of an independent country that had largely rejected his overtures and allied itself with the West. Neither Britain nor France nor the United States did a thing to stop him.


Encouraged by his occupation of Sudetenland, Hitler continued his designs on Czechoslovakia itself and invaded the rest of the nation a few months later.


Will history continue to repeat itself?


Georgia is one of the two countries that have split off from the old Soviet Union and most firmly reached out to the West. Now Putin is testing whether the West will respond to an overt Russian military attack on a part of Georgia, doubtless paving the way for a full scale invasion, perhaps in the coming days. One immediate Russian move would be to use its newfound military leverage to force Georgia to give up Abkhazia, another province with a large Russian population.


Russia has encouraged migration by ethnic Russians into its satellite empire ever since Stalin's days and now is using the provinces with large Russian populations to foment discord in nations that lean to the West.


The United States and the European Union must not turn away at this crucial moment in history. The U.S. should take visible steps to bolster Georgia, including the dispatch of supplies, materials, and other manifestations of our determination not to let this nation be invaded.


Russia's goal in this imperialism is to intimidate any nation on its borders into rejecting overtures from the West and to try to prove that the West will offer no real protection against Russian military designs.


NATO should speed consideration of Georgia's application for admission and should extend its security umbrella to include the struggling democracy.


If the United States appeases Russia now, it will pay the same price British Prime Minister Nevelle Chamberlain paid in the 1930s. This invasion must not be allowed to stand or, at the very least, it must be contained to south Ossetia and not allowed to lap over into the rest of Georgia
 

What a nice story. . .  Did it follow the story about the 20 million dollars from the dead engineer waiting for you to pick it up if you just pay the shipping??

Lets see now. . . .  Georgia invades the breakaway province. . . Russia goes to the UN immediately. . .  Condi gets in the way and tries to delay like she did during the situation in Lebanon. . .  This time it doesnt work because Russia engages in self help. . . . Georgia gets their butt thumped. . . . Cheney throws a temper tantrum. . . .  and  Bush whines into the night. What are WE gonna do about it? Not a damn thing. Send the marines? Uhhh no er uh theyre a little busy this year. So is the army. . .  Trade sanctions?!?!?! HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA. Well I guess "Putie" wont be on georgie's Xmas card list any more. So there. . .

The story will shake itself out in a few days and find its own level. On Russia's terms. Not ours.

[I/O]

Nostraldarmarse checking in. (Picking my nose and predicting the future since they let me out of the asylum for a few hours)

Ho hum, Russia is a big bad bully, no wait a minute, Georgia is an upstart little schit who needs a lesson, no, that's not right, it's all America's fault and somehow Hitler contributed to that.

Girls and boys, we know exactly what happened because the western media said so and that's a fact!!! We also know what didn't happen because the Russian media said it didn't and that is absolutely trustworthy beyond any dispute. So now we know what happened and what didn't happen from these reliable sources, what will happen now?

Russia is in Georgia for keeps, no options, no choice. It wishes to protect it's passport holders, oops, that was beloved citizens and reconstruct. Who is going to stop a repeat? Unless Upavolta sends in it's total force of 3, who were trained by the French BTW, so they probably couldn't punch a hole in hymen, it will be the Russians who will be sitting it out for the shots which will continue to come from the sidelines for a long time to come. Anyone see 10, 20 or more thousand SO's in any frame of mind to rush back to their motherland?

Ronnie, your Georgian man is a "Stand Up" guy? He can't lie straight in bed but I don't think he is all bad. Whatever, a military stratigist of Donald Duck proportions. Russia had a handful of lightly armed troops in there. He had 40 hours to block the tunnel which was about their only way in other than by air and he did what? Maybe he left it open so the SO's had a way out and left it too late to close it? Perhaps there was a plan to cleanse the area of SO's? Either he is a military idiot or a liar?

Both sides have a deal of blood on their hands and as BC reported yesterday, the US flying Georgian troops back in, is not exactly a soothing development when it comes to the propaganda war. Finally, 1 strike for Auntie Rus in the PG war, handed to them on a plate.

Better sneak back into the asylum before lights out.....................in Europe due to lack of oil and gas? No, Vlad will take care of it because he is one of those "Stand Up" guys also, George said so...!!!! I wonder what Adolf's take on it would be?

I/O

[steviej]

... On Oct. 3, 1938, Adolf Hitler's armies marched into Sudetenland, a part of Czechoslovakia. Germany said it was responding to separatist demands from the large German population that lived there and that she was merely honoring their desire for reunion with Germany.

That's true. There were large German populations that had been severed off by the allies at Versaille. The severed Germans held a plebicite and voted to be returned to Germany. Wilson had said he believed in "self determination" except not for Germans. They were ignored, and left with Poland and Czechoslovakia.

Again, an example of a regional dispute turned into a pointless , massive blood bath for no reason by "the allies", IMHO. Hitler, and the Germans, were determined to regain all their territories that were taken away by Versaille. Nothing wrong with that objective.

Hitler's tanks took over a vital part of an independent country that had largely rejected his overtures and allied itself with the West. Neither Britain nor France nor the United States did a thing to stop him.

Why should they? At the end, they just got Stalin anyway.

The United States and the European Union must not turn away at this crucial moment in history. The U.S. should take visible steps to bolster Georgia, including the dispatch of supplies, materials, and other manifestations of our determination not to let this nation be invaded.

Why do you keep accepting the war party line on everything around the globe? Why should the US have any "determination not to let this nation be invaded. "  ??? Georgia has been part of Russia for over 200 years, before that under Ottoman control. Not even a country from about 1250 as I recall. Most of the state in the US have in in US less time than Georgia was part of Russia. Georgia is not a country. It is a trip-wire to justify reasons for the American military industrial complex to take your tax dollars away from things needed at home and put it in their bank accounts.

NATO should speed consideration of Georgia's application for admission and should extend its security umbrella to include the struggling democracy.

As Mr. Potter said in "It's a Wonderful Life" ... that's "Sentimental Hogwash!!" It is certainly not any basis for foreign policy.

If the United States appeases Russia now, it will pay the same price British Prime Minister Nevelle Chamberlain paid in the 1930s. This invasion must not be allowed to stand or, at the very least, it must be contained to south Ossetia and not allowed to lap over into the rest of Georgia

Chamberlain made a promise to Poland that never should have been made, and never could have been kept.  For the sake of that hubris, he started a world war that left tens of million dead and all Europe devastated. This same folly you want to pursue all over again, and again?

[Lit_1nce]

I wonder what Adolf's take on it would be?
I/O

Well Nostraldarmarse , I think he's down the hall third door past Jesus' room at the asylum.. maybe you could ask him.

[I/O]

Well Nostraldarmarse , I think he's down the hall third door past Jesus' room at the asylum.. maybe you could ask him.

  You been there to check? Or was that reported in the media?

I/O

[Ronnie]

Do you think Georgia is so crazy to fire on her own cities and kill her own citizens? 

I dunno... but I can think of one country who did that..I think the name of the city is Grozny.  The name of the crazy man escapes me just now.

Sorry if I will spoil your fantasy or fantasy of somebody else, but the Russian army already has been on the territory of South Ossetia according to the Dagomyss agreement.

I thought it was clear I was posting an article from Dick Morris.  Perhaps he oversimplied a bit for your and my tastes.  The theme of his article was the similarities between today and 1938.  Different countries, different megalomaniacs, same modus operandi.

[Ronnie]

That's true. There were large German populations that had been severed off by the allies at Versaille. The severed Germans held a plebicite and voted to be returned to Germany. Wilson had said he believed in "self determination" except not for Germans. They were ignored, and left with Poland and Czechoslovakia.

Again, an example of a regional dispute turned into a pointless , massive blood bath for no reason by "the allies", IMHO. Hitler, and the Germans, were determined to regain all their territories that were taken away by Versaille. Nothing wrong with that objective.

Why should they? At the end, they just got Stalin anyway.

Why do you keep accepting the war party line on everything around the globe? Why should the US have any "determination not to let this nation be invaded. "  ??? Georgia has been part of Russia for over 200 years, before that under Ottoman control. Not even a country from about 1250 as I recall. Most of the state in the US have in in US less time than Georgia was part of Russia. Georgia is not a country. It is a trip-wire to justify reasons for the American military industrial complex to take your tax dollars away from things needed at home and put it in their bank accounts.


As Mr. Potter said in "It's a Wonderful Life" ... that's "Sentimental Hogwash!!" It is certainly not any basis for foreign policy.

Chamberlain made a promise to Poland that never should have been made, and never could have been kept.  For the sake of that hubris, he started a world war that left tens of million dead and all Europe devastated. This same folly you want to pursue all over again, and again?

My apologies for not making it clearer that the article was written by Dick Morris, someone with whom I very seldom agree.  Please don't ascribe his article to me.  But Stevie, since you have a better take on history and world events than said Morris, perhaps you could have been Clinton's advisor..  Job paid well I hear and came with your choice of young intern or professional call girl.

[Ronnie]

The story will shake itself out in a few days and find its own level. On Russia's terms. Not ours.

This was the only part of your post I could understand and I agree.  Story will be written on Russia's terms, because there will be no foreign press allowed into Russian occupied Georgia to interview eye witnesses who might give insight into who started the shooting.  Russia will stick to it's story that Georgia started it and they only came to rescue of Russian passport holders and they'll execute the Georgian leaders because they didn't deserve to govern.

Why wait, that's Putin's story and he's stickin' to it.

[steviej]

My apologies for not making it clearer that the article was written by Dick Morris, someone with whom I very seldom agree.  Please don't ascribe his article to me.  But Stevie, since you have a better take on history and world events than said Morris, perhaps you could have been Clinton's advisor..

Ah, good clarification. You weren't saying you agreed with guy, I see. Is this also the guy that advised spending my money to bomb the Serb Christians to help the Muslims? Now that sounds like Clinton. Clinton even signed NAFTA. Hard to believe. Are these liberals always trying to prove how tough they are or something?  ?? 

[steviej]

..  Job paid well I hear and came with your choice of young intern or professional call girl. ..

... LOL good one!    I would definitely need a lot of young attractive female FSU translators working very closely with me, probably long hours, because of all the critical issues I have to define for our "strategic interests" in Eastern Europe (which somehow for the first 150 yrs we didn't seem to have - how did we get by? )

[Ronnie]

Ah, good clarification. You weren't saying you agreed with guy, I see. Is this also the guy that advised spending my money to bomb the Serb Christians to help the Muslims? Now that sounds like Clinton. Clinton even signed NAFTA. Hard to believe. Are these liberals always trying to prove how tough they are or something?  ?? 

Liberal? I don't know what Morris is.  I don't know what you are.  Hell, I don't know what I am for that matter.  Liberal on this, conservative on that.  The only consistent posters here seem to be TallBill (conservative) and expat BC (Bill Clinton?)

[wxman]

The phrase by wxman "to prevent genocide" is very correct. In 2007 the population of South Ossetia was about 70 thousand. During the attack of Tskhinvali by Georgian army South Ossetia lost about 2000 of civilians for two days of war. It seems that West media doesn't want to talk about it. Why? I guess because NATO is not interested in a destiny of Ossetians, but only in the potential territory of NATO. 

Please don't twist what I am saying. Russia is using it as an excuse, not as a reason. HUGE difference. Russia's reason is absolute BS!

[wxman]

Russia has never known respect for borders. To them weakness is a reason to be exterminated. Putin should know this quite well as former head of KGB. Absolutely amazes me that who Russians feared the most, would be allowed to rule like a tyrant of their country. I never thought Russians could be that stupid, but again, I have been proven wrong. 

[wxman]

It's too bad that Georgia did disassemble all their nuclear weapons after the break up of the Soviet Union. If Russia thinks that Ukraine followed suit, they will be suprised if they pull that stunt there. Simply put, Ukraine still has nuclear weapons, and Russia and other governments know that.

[steviej]

It's too bad that Georgia did disassemble all their nuclear weapons after the break up of the Soviet Union. If Russia thinks that Ukraine followed suit, they will be suprised if they pull that stunt there. Simply put, Ukraine still has nuclear weapons, and Russia and other governments know that.

Same reason Iran wants nuclear weapons. You can't keep the big boys off your lawn unless you've got something ...

[wxman]

Same reason Iran wants nuclear weapons. You can't keep the big boys off your lawn unless you've got something ...

Exactly! If Georgia would have been smarter they would have kept one nuclear bomb. They could have easily taken out 30 million (Moscow) with one button. Eliminate the central government and you elimate the head of the dragon. Of course if they had just one bomb, Russia would never had pulled this stunt. It's unfortunate that Georgia did not get the chance.

[BC]

wx,

I find your line of thought(?) quite queer, you seem to be overjoyed with obfuscating the issue by drumming your chest.  Very base.

[wxman]

wx,

I find your line of thought(?) quite queer, you seem to be overjoyed with obfuscating the issue by drumming your chest.  Very base.

Nope as steviej said "Same reason Iran wants nuclear weapons. You can't keep the big boys off your lawn unless you've got something"

This would have never happened if Georgia had a nuclear bomb. If this was true, and Russia still attacked, 30 million would be dead by now. As far as the morality, it's only in the human mind. Humans are nothing more than a carbon based unit, no different from a pig or cow. We became self aware at some point, and the fear of death caused us to create a god and an after life. We think we are above death, when in essence we are nothing more than a product of self preservation. We are only here for one reason, to continue the species. god and after life is just an illusion to keep us from going mad. if we could accept this, perhaps we would be much more advanced by now, and war would not exist.

[I/O]

They could have easily taken out 30 million (Moscow) with one button. Eliminate the central government and you elimate the head of the dragon. Of course if they had just one bomb, Russia would never had pulled this stunt. It's unfortunate that Georgia did not get the chance.

The ol' 'puter in the asylum must connect me to old numbers. Moscow, 13 million last time I checked. :noidea: And Russia has how many "bombs"? 1 Georgian "Bomb" would swing the balance against Moscow. I thought it was me living in the loony bin. :noidea:

I/O

[BC]

Ronnie, you are simply ill-informed about Georgia-South Ossetia events 

For that, you get a pass. 

I hope that one day the American media will let the president of South Ossetia to speak openly on TV and will show the destroyed Ossetian areas and interview with Ossetians. Then we can talk 

BTW where was the American journalism when the Georgia was firing on Tskhinvali? 

Olga,

Putin is not dumb.. he knows the media game quite well..

He knows it's useless to fight a media war until the dust settles.  Since there is really so little to report, any facts will be overshadowed by conjecture.

At the risk of being temporarily called a bully, he will likely play his cards when the dust settles, possibly making @sses out of those now protesting.  Some time next week, the UN will get an earfull.

For the last day we have been constantly bombarded that the "Russians have advanced to within 70 km of Tblisi!".. thinking the world is too dumb to look at a map of Georgia and figure out first that Gori is approximately that distance from Tblisi and that no troops have been seen any further than that.  In fact, an AP reporter in Gori yesterday saw no RU troops in Gori.  That the Russians will take up a couple of strategic positions that would make it difficult for the Georgian army to return is clear..  Gori being a logistics hub is probably one of them.  The media could have easily reported that the Russian advance stopped near Gori with a few soldiers guarding roads and railheads.  It's not news, it's a show..

Ronnie, wx,

Why aren't the tanks in Tblisi yet?.. It's 'only' 40 miles or so...

Is interesting that the media blitz seems to have little effect and is quite transparent..

Here are the results so far of a CNN poll.. but of course someone will say that the FSB somehow hacked the poll..  sheesh..

[BC]

Nope as steviej said "Same reason Iran wants nuclear weapons. You can't keep the big boys off your lawn unless you've got something"

This would have never happened if Georgia had a nuclear bomb. If this was true, and Russia still attacked, 30 million would be dead by now. As far as the morality, it's only in the human mind. Humans are nothing more than a carbon based unit, no different from a pig or cow. We became self aware at some point, and the fear of death caused us to create a god and an after life. We think we are above death, when in essence we are nothing more than a product of self preservation. We are only here for one reason, to continue the species. god and after life is just an illusion to keep us from going mad. if we could accept this, perhaps we would be much more advanced by now, and war would not exist.

Folks this is difficult.. but I'll give it a last shot..

wx,

Why are there no nukes in Georgia?  I bet there is a damn good reason for that.

the ignore button is starting to lure..  not because I cannot accept opin different from mine, but that your posts lack even tiny amounts of substance.  Are you a reporter?

[Shadow]

This just popped into my email box from a former advisor to Bill Clinton:
Russia's Invasion Same as Hitler's
Monday, August 11, 2008 11:44 AM

By: Dick Morris & Eileen McGann 
 
On Oct. 3, 1938, Adolf Hitler's armies marched into Sudetenland, a part of Czechoslovakia. Germany said it was responding to separatist demands from the large German population that lived there and that she was merely honoring their desire for reunion with Germany.
Hitler's tanks took over a vital part of an independent country that had largely rejected his overtures and allied itself with the West. Neither Britain nor France nor the United States did a thing to stop him.

On Aug. 7, 2008, Vladimir Putin's armies marched into South Ossetia, a part of Georgia. Russia said it was responding to separatist demands from the large Russian population that lived there and that she was merely honoring their desire for reunion with Russia.
Putin's tanks took over a vital part of an independent country that had largely rejected his overtures and allied itself with the West. Neither Britain nor France nor the United States did a thing to stop him.

Encouraged by his occupation of Sudetenland, Hitler continued his designs on Czechoslovakia itself and invaded the rest of the nation a few months later.

Unlike Russia, there were no German troops in Sudetenland. There was no attack of Czechoslovakia on the people in Sudetenland.
A totally wrong comparison.

Will history continue to repeat itself?
Georgia is one of the two countries that have split off from the old Soviet Union and most firmly reached out to the West. Now Putin is testing whether the West will respond to an overt Russian military attack on a part of Georgia, doubtless paving the way for a full scale invasion, perhaps in the coming days. One immediate Russian move would be to use its newfound military leverage to force Georgia to give up Abkhazia, another province with a large Russian population.

Two countries have split off from the old Soviet Union ? Let me see..
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Türkmenistan, Georgia,Ukraine. Did I miss some ? Probably. But any political advisor that can not count further as two (Probably Ukraine and Georgia) is too ignorant and ill-informed to give any kind of opinion.

That anyone can distort the facts in such a way really makes me sick. What is even worse is that because of his name people will start to believe this crap.

[Lit_1nce]

As far as the morality, it's only in the human mind. Humans are nothing more than a carbon based unit, no different from a pig or cow. We became self aware at some point, and the fear of death caused us to create a god and an after life. We think we are above death, when in essence we are nothing more than a product of self preservation. We are only here for one reason, to continue the species. god and after life is just an illusion to keep us from going mad. if we could accept this, perhaps we would be much more advanced by now, and war would not exist.

Or perhaps there would be no fear of punishment in the afterlife, and even more war would exist.

Trying to figure out if you haven't taken your meds, or if perhaps you've taken something else.