Russia is at it again!

[Blues Fairy]

The alternative is a world where regional conflicts are "not allowed" and "peace is enforced everywhere." But how is that done? What power structures globally are required to do that? Is there ever a limit to their growth and intrusion into life?

Some form of control is necessary, that's why industrialized democratic countries of the world maintain a military.  Just in case some new dictator emerges and, led by nationalistic/religious/personal motives, decides to attack his neighbors.  You really cannot formalize this control, since complete unity of political and economic interests between said nations is never possible.  Reaching perfect consensus takes endless time, whereas urgent situations demand urgent actions.

[BC]

Georgian invade in South Ossetia

[youtube=425,350]yCwTo9AdT2c&feature=related[/youtube]

That was quite a report..  Didn't see it on CNN.. maybe not 'newsworthy' enough.

I'm glad he did have his say though and that most of his family came out ok.

[steviej]

That was quite a report..  Didn't see it on CNN.. maybe not 'newsworthy' enough.

I'm glad he did have his say though and that most of his family came out ok.

I doubt that report will ever see the light of day on the major US networks. It reemphasizes a point I've been trying to make over and over. In this report (and I'm sure all reports are different) it's clear that the very fact that the US even has  a "policy" in this region (which is should not) and is "supporting" Georgia, is a major contribution to the outbreak of hostilities. If Georgia perceived they were entirely on their own, they would make necessary accommocation to Russian policy. This is part of essential regional settlement of conflict. The whole idea of global alliances, "NATOs", "UNs", etc., simply breeds never ending conflict and a set of interconnected military alliances that drag everyone to every fight. I am completely opposed to NATO, UN, and any form of multi-lateral alliances. Isn't the 20th century itself enough of a lesson? It is this same mentality, this never ending set of "policies" in regions where nations should not have one, the ever increasing net of alliances, that led to massive blood shed in WWI and WWII. This way of thinking is endemic in our conscious now, I'm afraid. It's hard to realize that the dictators by themselves are less dangerous than the so-called alliances against them. IMHO

[steviej]

Some form of control is necessary, that's why industrialized democratic countries of the world maintain a military.  

A military is for defense of your own country.

[Blues Fairy]

A military is for defense of your own country.

Or your citizens in another country, if they constitute 80% of it.  Or a friendly country under the attack of a militant lunatic.

Come on, steviej.  If Ahmadinejad nukes Israel, should the West stay away from it as a minor regional skirmish, and let it "play out"?

[BC]

Or your citizens in another country, if they constitute 80% of it.  Or a friendly country under the attack of a militant lunatic.

Come on, steviej.  If Ahmadinejad nukes Israel, should the West stay away from it as a minor regional skirmish, and let it "play out"?

There are precedents for violating a country's sovereignty to rescue citizens.. anyone remember the Iran Hostage Crisis?  Some were even given Canadian passports..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis

[Faux Pas]

A military is for defense of your own country.

If that were the case you'd most likely be speaking german right now. You know I don't really understand your constant anti-american rhetoric at this issue. As Conner and I/O stated there hasn't been enough credible evidence or news reports as to exactly what happened or what is going on in Georgia to form any kind of reasoned argument. Yet one reading your rants might believe the US fired on Georgia. The only thing I have deduced from your posts is George Bush and America is guilty.

The policy of any given country at any given time is only a position and very subject to change. Why are your attempting to portray the US as some kind of culprit here. Based on the wrongs of the past?

[steviej]

If that were the case you'd most likely be speaking german right now. You know I don't really understand your constant anti-american rhetoric at this issue. As Conner and I/O stated there hasn't been enough credible evidence or news reports as to exactly what happened or what is going on in Georgia to form any kind of reasoned argument. Yet one reading your rants might believe the US fired on Georgia. The only thing I have deduced from your posts is George Bush and America is guilty.

The policy of any given country at any given time is only a position and very subject to change. Why are your attempting to portray the US as some kind of culprit here. Based on the wrongs of the past?

To disagree is not ranting. To state a view or opinion that has not been expressed or is new is not ranting. Yesterday the Vice President of the United States declared, with regard to the Russian invasion of Georgia, "This will not stand!" That is a blatent threat to intervene and use force by the US against Russia. In my opinion, it is insane for the US to make such a threat against Russia in this situation. I think the US should stay out of it - completely. It is credible that the US, by encouraging Georgia to disregard Russia's policy interests in which is, fundamentally, Russian's sphere of influence, was a factor in Georgia attacking SO in the first place. Perhaps Georgia believed they would have military and economic support from US and NATO for this adventure. Being emboldended, they began to attack. If this is indeed the case, the US is already somewhat accountable for bloodshed by intervening and prodding where we dont' belong. That is my opinion. It is a well informed opinion, but it may differ from yours.

Now your comment about "speaking German right now" is a completely uninformed opinion, IMHO. You are resorting to the time tested labeling of "anti-American" and "don't forget Hitler" nonsense. That's for cheer leading at football games, not for foreign policy. Again, IMHO.

[steviej]

Come on, steviej.  If Ahmadinejad nukes Israel, should the West stay away from it as a minor regional skirmish, and let it "play out"?

BF, that would indeed be an interesting debate, and brings all these elements into play. But in an effort not to take this too far off-topic, I'll pass for the time being. Someday we may get to discuss this again.

[Faux Pas]

To disagree is not ranting. To state a view or opinion that has not been expressed or is new is not ranting. Yesterday the Vice President of the United States declared, with regard to the Russian invasion of Georgia, "This will not stand!" That is a blatent threat to intervene and use force by the US against Russia. In my opinion, it is insane for the US to make such a threat against Russia in this situation. I think the US should stay out of it - completely. It is credible that the US, by encouraging Georgia to disregard Russia's policy interests in which is, fundamentally, Russian's sphere of influence, was a factor in Georgia attacking SO in the first place. Perhaps Georgia believed they would have military and economic support from US and NATO for this adventure. Being emboldended, they began to attack. If this is indeed the case, the US is already somewhat accountable for bloodshed by intervening and prodding where we dont' belong. That is my opinion. It is a well informed opinion, but it may differ from yours.

Now your comment about "speaking German right now" is a completely uninformed opinion, IMHO. You are resorting to the time tested labeling of "anti-American" and "don't forget Hitler" nonsense. That's for cheer leading at football games, not for foreign policy. Again, IMHO.

To continue to hammer and pound relentlessly on what a bull*hit country the US is because of its association with Georgia is a rant. The US has relations with many countries for many different reasons. You have no credible information to back up your position against the US. The only information we "know"  for sure at this juncture is that Russia fired on Georgia. You don't know why yet you have already solidified in your mind that America is at fault. You try to give your position some legs with a comment by Cheney of "this will not stand"? That dog don't hunt. IMO

stevie you are more than welcome to your opinion and I am to mine but your whole opinion (if thats what it is) has been formed on pure conjecture. You don't KNOW that Georgia initiated and fired first expecting the US or NATO to come running in support. You don't KNOW that Russia was playing the innocent peacekeepers in this conflict. I only encourage you to seek more information before bashing the country you live in.

As for the language comment that is not some labeling of anti americanism. You are tossing out a red herring. Did we not fight the nazis in Europe and Africa? Hitler never attacked us but most historians agree without US entering WWII the outcome would have been significantly different. In which he would have attacked later when we alone were unable to stop him. Uninformed opinion no, but an opinion none the less.

[steviej]

You don't KNOW that Georgia initiated and fired first expecting the US or NATO to come running in support. You don't KNOW that Russia was playing the innocent peacekeepers in this conflict. I only encourage you to seek more information before bashing the country you live in.

My point is, it doesn't matter at all how it started, who shot who first, who set it up, who's to blame ... it has nothing to do with the US and we should stay out of it. I don't care whether Russia or Georgia is guilty of anything or not.  George Washington said our foreign  policy should be based on staying out of foreign wars. I think it was Jeffereson ?? not sure) that said we should never be seduced into thinking we are the freedom fighters of the world. Ever since Woodrow Wilson, we have drifted farther and farther from that sage advice. Over the past 20 years we have become drunk with "moralistic interventionism" , again, in my opinion. It's virtually constant now.

Hitler never attacked us but most historians agree without US entering WWII the outcome would have been significantly different. In which he would have attacked later when we alone were unable to stop him. Uninformed opinion no, but an opinion none the less.

Faux Pas, I have studied WWI and WWII extensively. There are many and differing perspectives on the causes and results. After 20 yrs of study and consideration, I have an opinion on it you would probably find very interesting (I don't mean just to disagree. I think you would find it interesting). But for the sake of the other readers of this thread, I won't go that far off topic here. A quick summarization: Washington and Jefferson (??) were completely right about the policy we (and England) should have pursued w.r.t. WWI and WWII also. But, as they say, that's history now ...

[wxman]

I'm starting to wonder if Georgia did fire the proverbial first shot. Looks more and more like Russia fired the first shot of a cyber war as early as July 20th. Russia was already practicing it's war game by figuring out how to shut down the Georgian government once they do commence the attack. Russia has been caught with it's hand in the cookie jar.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/technology/13cyber.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

No doubt in my mind that the president of Georgia is going to come out of this the winner in his country. Nothing rallies a country around it's leader more than someone attacking their country. Doesn't matter how good or bad a leader he is, he now has the overwhelming support of his people, something he probably did not have prior.

[I/O]

With the halt now having been called by Moscow to the current operation, much of the world will quickly forget and turn attention to the olympics, whodunit will take some figuring out but if any newbies read this thread, get a clue, if you marry a Russian, if Russia is in it, Russia is right...!!! Russians are not famous for compromise negotiations.

How ironic that Medvedev, who incidently, reminds me of one of those fair ground laughing clown machines which have heads with open mouths turning back and forth, waiting for some kid to drop a ball in and no independant will to act, announces a cessation of actions a whole 1 hour before the envoy from Upavolta, ooops my bad, that was France arrives to broker a deal. Russia, as always, will do things in her time and in her way. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Quite clearly, Tbilisi has had it's arse handed to it in a very short time. Nevertheless, Tbilisi is a clear victor in the propoganda stakes. The most balanced Russian based comments I can find on the net even suggest Moscow handled the media stakes, which in a modern world are very high, very badly indeed. Somehow, I doubt the Tbilisi media gloss will last too long and as the dust settles, the Georgians will see the reality of what has been achieved, which amounts to a step backwards in the near term and maybe a huge step backwards in the longer term.

Medvedev is looking very much the apprentice in the overall picture and I think his more liberal approach to Russia's international future has been delt serious blow. Poland and Czech will likely ratify the US missile defence shield bases in response, the SO's have not gotten their independant state, worse, they have nowhere habitable to live there anyway, USA will gain little traction for more involvement in Georgia, Russia's image is severely tarnished and there is a host of other negatives. Can anyone see a winner here? I certainly can't, at least not in the near term.

I/O   

[Faux Pas]

My point is, it doesn't matter at all how it started, who shot who first, who set it up, who's to blame ... it has nothing to do with the US and we should stay out of it. I don't care whether Russia or Georgia is guilty of anything or not.  George Washington said our foreign  policy should be based on staying out of foreign wars. I think it was Jeffereson ?? not sure) that said we should never be seduced into thinking we are the freedom fighters of the world. Ever since Woodrow Wilson, we have drifted farther and farther from that sage advice. Over the past 20 years we have become drunk with "moralistic interventionism" , again, in my opinion. It's virtually constant now.

I don't disagree with this fundamentally as I have long held isolationist's views. Jefferson also said discention  is the truest form of patriotism. But earlier, you first formed your conclusion then tried to build supporting evidence with opinion. Ironically, thats exactly what the Bush administration did with WMD prior to the Iraqi invasion. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with our leaders or having varying opinions but that doesn't make yours right especially when its formed on rumor, innuendo and half truth media reports.

Foreign affairs and world politics is always a game of chess for politicians whether they have a dog in the fight or not, is immaterial. Like it or not that is the world we live in. It is not inclusive to just American politicians. A basic principle for every government  or regime is to have a boogeyman and every chance to identify a possible candidate is quickly seized.

You and I are not very far apart. I agree we should stay out of this conflict. I expect leaders from all industrialized nations will voice opinion but that doesn't make them right either no matter which side they choose.

[Ronnie]

No Kidding DB! Sveta is pretty emotional about what is going on, as she's a proud Russian. Her main worry is that this 'war' will escalate and her government will impose travel restrictions on Foreigners who's countries are aligned with NATO... Meaning me and Canada!
She is relieved that I am not an American. She doesn't want to end up having to defend me to her family and friends, if things deteriorate.
She describes Georgia as an FSU nation that hasn't been successful on it's own and who now wants the West to save it from collapse.

Actually Utrobina,  Georgia was making very good progress...too good for the Kremlin.  Your wife has bought the Russian propaganda..it's not her fault.

Since early 2000s visible positive developments have been observed in the economy of Georgia. In 2006 Georgia's real GDP growth rate reached 8.8%, making Georgia one of the fastest growing economies in Eastern Europe.[1] The World Bank dubbed Georgia "the number one economic reformer in the world" because it has in one year improved from rank 112th to 18th in terms of ease of doing business.

[Ronnie]

I'm surprised that Godwin's Law took so long to appear in this thread.      

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7934.0


As typical during the haze of war, no one really has enough of the facts to really know for sure what is truly going on.  Putin, Bush, the media, even us here on this forum, only have a (small) piece of the puzzle and a short time to analyze it.  As this continues, there will be more good guys, and certainly more bad guys.

All of the issues that are presented here - Borders, sovereignty, oil, NATO, citizenship, power, are all valid parts of this situation.  But until this situation stabilizes, it is impossible for anyone to get a full grasp of the whole thing.

We can just pray that soon things will settle down, and the fighting stops, so the people involved can start to put together their world.  However it ends up looking like.   

Conner,
Unless I misread the link you provided, I don't think this thread has yet dissolved to Godwin's Law.  No poster and compared another of acting like Hitler, a Nazi, or Stalin.  Those references here posted were made of Putin and the Kremlin, who as far as I know have yet to post to this thread.

As to the the Russian cameraman saying on RT that the building shown on CNN and represented to be Gori:  I think the cameraman and of course RT was trying the make the case that the Russians had not bombed Gori and the wrong tape being shown was proof.  Well, as someone said, that dog doesn't hunt.  That may be logical to those who want to deny the bombing of Gori.  But here are other explanations:

The logical one is that the tape of Gori, wasn't high quality enough to be broadcast of the never received such tape, or the tap wasn't ready but the old tape was.  None of this means that CNN made a false report, yet that was precisely the reason RT did that cameraman story.

Having made that analysis, it's not necessary really to go into the cameraman's credibility.  One could ask, is he fully knowledgeable about both cities?  Can he recognize a bombed out building and distinguish it front every other bombed out building? 

Again, for the sake of argument, it's not necessary to disprove the RT story, just to point out that the RT story didn't logically support their conclusion.

[Ronnie]

Somewhere upthread Wxman suggested the G7 could apply pressure on Putin and threaten to kick Russia out the G8.  I heard a snippet yesterday that the members of the G7 were in consultation.  Later I heard that there had been a cease fire announced in Moscow, but apparently the word had not yet reached the troops.  That's the last I heard so maybe the advance has now been halted.
Good suggestion Wxman...maybe somebody was listening to you. 

[OlgaH]

Actually Utrobina,  Georgia was making very good progress...too good for the Kremlin.

Ronnie, you are buying Bush's propaganda... it is not your fault 

good progress only with Bush's help  Of course he will not let his puppy to die economically especially after his puppy's last blunder 

BTW The United States has been providing military and technical support to independent Georgia for almost 15 years. http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28892

Many experts say the military conflict between Georgia and South Ossetia is not in Russia’s interests. The Former Georgian Foreign Minister Salome Zurabishvili says the United States could be partly responsible for the violence in South Ossetia.

In an interview with the France-Presse news agency she commented on the possible reasons behind the military conflict.

"There are many Americans in Georgia training the military forces of the country and monitoring the situation. As I understand, they also supervise the strategic corridor – the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline.

The main purpose behind the conflict is the further strategic orientation of Georgia and an opportunity for the West, I mean the USA and the EU, to count on Georgia and the Caucasus in ensuring the strategic provision of oil".

Professor Gerhard Mangott, from the Department of political science at the University of Innsbruck, shared his opinion on who stands to gain from the military escalation in the conflict zone.

"The military assault in South Ossetia was launched deliberately, and the question is by whom? Definitely, not by Russia, as it’s not in the country’s interests,” he said.

Security expert Andrey Demurenko said it will be years before South Ossetians can trust Georgia again:

“Saakashvili should kneel in front of cameras and beg for forgiveness from the mothers of killed sons, the economy should be re-stored, houses and streets rebuilt, families returned".

He added that it was inevitable that both South Ossetia and Abkhazia would move further away from Georgia and insist on greater autonomy.

“Georgian aggression towards them has just speeded up the process,” Demurenko said
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28742

[OlgaH]

I'm starting to wonder if Georgia did fire the proverbial first shot. Looks more and more like Russia fired the first shot

If it would be so Saakashvili would be crying so loudly about it... or may be he, as Bush's puppy, is absolutely idiot if he started his mission towards Ossetians without covering his a$$ and did not announce the world that he was forced by Russian attack to destroy the South Ossetia massively killing Ossetian civilians and destroying Ossetian cultural monuments.

Saakashvili and Bush's propaganda keeps silent about the such fact who was the first... and we know why 

Ossetian refugees mourn their dead
August 13, 2008,

As the noise from guns and shells dies down in the conflict zone, the sound is replaced by the crying of desperate victims. Following Georgia’s attack on South Ossetia, it's hard to find a citizen who hasn't lost a relative in the conflict.

With the humanitarian corridor now completely under peacekeepers' control, convoys of refugees continue to stream into Russia's southern regions, where they are being provided with food and shelter.

International aid

With South Ossetia's capital Tskhinvali completely devastated, and more than 30,000 people displaced, the international community is offering aid to those in need.

France has sent a planeload of humanitarian aid and is distributing 30 tonnes of medicine and other necessities among the victims of the conflict.

Spain has allocated €500,000 to help those in need.

Meanwhile, British prime minister, Gordon Brown, has expressed his readiness to participate in the relief effort.

Shadow of sorrow

Cars loaded with dead bodies continue to arrive at the morgues of Vladikavkaz and dozens of funerals are under way.

Koch Final, a 24-year-old volunteer, was shot near Tskhinvali. His family say they last spoke to him two days ago. He was caught in the middle of an interior barrage of the city.

“At four o'clock in the evening we called him there. He said massive shooting had begun and promised to call back. He never did,” his sister recalls.

Valentina Boratova spent three days in a bunker and, during a lull in the fighting, she managed to escape. She says her son remained in Tskhinvali to protect those left behind.

“We always hear disinformation. South Ossetians never attacked anybody, but the Georgians committed the fourth genocide here. They did it in 1920, 1991, 2004 and now,” Boratova says.

Refugee camps near the borderare filled with women and children. They have lost their homes as well as their relatives. Many had to avoid flying bullets while trying to find their way to safety.

People here say the number of refugees will only increase. And with it, the cemeteries of North Ossetia will become fuller by the day.

Refuge on the coast

Thousands of people have been placed in temporary shelters across southern Russia. Each has their own terrible story to share, and many need psychological help.

They include hundreds of children, terrified by the events of the past few days, and who now find themselves in strange surroundings away from their homes.

Diana Mairamova is eight. She has never been on a beach before. Diana is one of more than 300 Ossetian refugees who found shelter at the Russian Black sea resort of Anapa. Diana's grandmother, Elena Kozaeva, says they were hiding together in the basement of their Tskinvali home, when it was shelled by Georgian artillery.

“We saw that our house caught fire too. We ran out, but didn't know where to go. We were so scared. For the whole day we looked into the face of death. The shooting was so strong, the noise was overwhelming. We thought that we would surely die,” Kozaeva recalls.

Elena's daughter Salima Kharobova says their 90-year-old grandfather is still in Tskhinvali.

“Grandpa is alive, but there is no bread nor any food. I think he is still sitting in the cold basement, hungry,” Kharobova says.

“On behalf of myself and on behalf of the people of Ossetia, I appeal to the president and the prime minister of the Russian Federation to acknowledge us, to acknowledge South Ossetia and deliver us from these fascists,” she pleaded.

Thousands of South Ossetian civilians who suffered from the Georgian bombings, have endured days of fear and despair. Some of them have spent almost 20 hours on the road before arriving to safety in the Krasnodar region.

Anapa is a traditional children's resort. For South Ossetia's women, children and elderly this is one of the few places where they can feel safe and try to forget the horrors they've seen as Georgia bombed their homes.

Russia says it's prepared to accept any amount of refugees from Tskhinvali here on the Black Sea coast. Anapa's administration is providing food, clothes, housing and transport.

Mayor Anatoly Pakhomov says it is a very emotional time for him - to see children too tired to smile and too scared, after what they had witnessed. Pakhomov says the locals are doing their best to help the refugees.

“We understood that the children had spent a lot of time on the road. We had to immediately wash and feed them, and then put them to bed. So we very quickly accommodated the children, in the matter of half an hour,” Pakhomov says.

“They were shooting at us from airplanes, they were throwing bombs at us. Bullets were reaching us all the way down to the basement. When we wouldn't leave our basement, they started flooding us. They burnt roofs of our homes. Even fascists didn't do that. Shevarnadze attacked us, Gamsakhurdia attacked us, now Saakashvili attacks us... they can't live there and neither can we, why do they want that land back if no one can live there? Saakashvili says he doesn't want the people - he wants the land,” said a refugee from Tskhinvali.

http://www.russiatoday.com/news

The brutal reality of war
The conflict in South Ossetia has already claimed the lives of at least 2,000 people. More than 30,000 have been displaced. Many of those have no idea where their families and friends are. Or even if they’re alive. They have no idea what will happen next.

In this video, RT shows you how ordinary people suffer in war.

Warning: many of the images are disturbing.
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28802

Civilians perish as Georgian troops torch church
August 12, 2008

The Regnum news agency is reporting that Georgian troops burned down a 10th century Orthodox church while terrified civilians perished inside. The agency quotes eyewitness accounts of the atrocity after all-out fighting in Khetagurovo, a small village near the republic’s capital Tskhinvali.

Almost all of those fighting to defend the village were killed, but the report says the fate of others, mostly women and the elderly, turned out to be even more horrible.

Eyewitnesses report that Georgian tanks literally ran people down and that soldiers took almost all the women to another location. Their fate is still unknown.

Meanwhile, those who didn’t manage to escape found their shelter in a 10th century Orthodox church. Civilians hoped that Georgians of the same faith wouldn’t dare storm the building, one of the oldest of its kind in the country.

But Regnum reports that the Georgian troops set the church on fire and left those inside to perish.

It is the latest in a series of reports of the Georgian military attacking and killing civilians.

 

 

[BC]

It ain't over till it's over. -and there is still a long way to go with this one.

The masses did not receive the results of responsible journalism, but instead biased speculation and sensationalism.  Very few facts were, or are even known now - and anything resembling truth still to come.

From the beginning, RU officials stated their intentions, how far they would go and they did exactly that.  Their voice however, was drowned out by the noise with the world believing that somehow western pressure caused them to stop.

Even now, at this minute CNN is reporting about a 'peace plan' which in truth is little more than a tentative cease fire.

A good deal of contempt prior to investigation was, and still is being spouted.

An example:

Georgia, Russia Agree To EU Peace Plan

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/12/world/main4346113_page2.shtml

Has anyone seen this document? Has it even been signed?

Anything BUT the truth.. but hey.. that's not what counts today it seems..

In old times, the government would make their statements and reporters would report it.. today the press gives their statement and governments acts on it..

Sad, and a very very dangerous game.

[OlgaH]

The presidents of Russia and France agreed Tuesday on six principles to resolve the situation in the Georgian breakaway republic of South Ossetia.

"The first is not to resort to the use of force. The second is to halt all military action. The third is free access to humanitarian aid. The fourth is that Georgian Armed Forces should return to their bases. The fifth is that Russian Armed Forces should pull back to their positions prior to combat," Russian President Dmitry Medvedev told a news conference with his French counterpart, Nicolas Sarkozy.

"The sixth is the beginning of international discussions on the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia and on ways to ensure their security," he added.

Medvedev also said that Georgia's August 8 attack on Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, should be taken into account when deciding the future status of both South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another breakaway Georgian republic. He made reference to the "precedent" of Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence in February, and its subsequent recognition by the United States and the majority of EU countries.

The Russian president added that the residents of the two rebel regions should be consulted on whether they wanted to be part of Georgia.

"They will give an unequivocal answer, an answer that cannot be given by Russia or any other country," he said

Medvedev also accused Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili of lying when he said that Georgia had ceased fire two days ago.

"As to the statement made by the Georgian president that a ceasefire has been in place for two days, this is a lie," he said.

Medvedev also commented that Russia's offensive against Georgia was the only possible response to Tbilisi's attack on South Ossetia.

"If Russia had had another way to react to Georgia's aggression against South Ossetia, we would have done this. There was no other way to respond," Medvedev said.

"Bullies differ from normal people in that when they sense blood it's very hard to stop them, and then one is forced to employ surgical methods," he added.

Russia has said that some 1,600 people were killed in Friday's attack on Tskhinvali by Georgian forces. Russia has accused Georgian troops of atrocities, including the burning alive of women and children.

The U.S. led Western condemnation of Russia's military operation to "enforce peace" in South Ossetia, with President George Bush calling Russia's response "disproportionate."

He also said that Russia "has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people."

Sarkozy said at the news conference that Europe was ready to join peacekeeping operations in South Ossetia.

The French leader is due to take the Russian-French peace plan to Tbilisi later this evening.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said however that if Tbilisi rejected the peace plan, Moscow would have to take measures to prevent further violence in South Ossetia.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia broke away from Georgia after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. Both republics fought vicious wars with Tbilisi that eventually ended in the retreat of Georgian troops and the regions gaining de facto independence.

Georgia alleged, although the claims were unproven, that the rebels had been armed with Russian-supplied military equipment. When the Rose Revolution street protests swept the pro-Western Saakashvili to power in 2004, the new president vowed to bring the regions back under central government control. Russian had earlier granted citizenship to residents of both republics.

Saakashvili also pledged to bring Georgia into NATO. For this to happen, the country's "frozen" conflicts would have to be resolved. Indeed, South Ossetia and Abkhazia were the reason why Georgia was not given a NATO Membership Action Plan in April, objections from Germany and France that doing so would unnecessarily antagonize Russia thwarting U.S. enthusiasm for welcoming Tbilisi into the military alliance.

NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said on Tuesday that a Russia-NATO session on the situation in Georgia and its breakaway republic of South Ossetia would be held in the near future.
http://en.rian.ru/world/20080812/115990107.html

Ceasefire reached
Russia’s President Dmitry Medvedev and his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy have drawn up a six point peace plan for settling the conflict in South Ossetia. Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili has accepted the plan.

That's according to French president Nikolas Sarkozy who's been mediating the agreement. Sarkozy announced this at a joint news conference with Saakashvili in Tbilisi.

According to the plan, both Georgian and Russian troops will retreat to their previous positions before the violence began.

Both sides also agree to the non use of force.

Sarkozy said the European Union would act as a guarantor in the process of regulating the conflict.

Peace plan devised

Sarkozy had been in Moscow earlier and hammered out the deal with Russian president Dmitry Medvedev. It called for the sides to sign up to the following principles:

1) Non-use of force.

2) Stop all military action.

3) Free access to humanitarian aid.

4) Georgian troops return to their previous positions before the conflict.

5) Russian troops return to the lines they held before the start of the military operation. Before an international solution is worked out Russian peacekeepers are taking up an additional security role.

6) The start of an international discussion over the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

To watch the press conference of the Russian and French presidents please follow the link.

The French President showed his understanding of Russia’s position. He added that France and Europe sought peace, and all the efforts now are aimed at achieving it.

“It’s quite normal that Russia wants to defend its interests, as well as the interests of Russians both in and outside Russia. It is also normal that we, the international community, want to guarantee the integrity, sovereignty and independence of Georgia. France has delivered a document to you and, I hope, we will be working on that basis,” he said.

Shortly after the attacks began last week, the country urged all sides to show restraint and avoid any escalation, as well as a resumption of direct dialogue between them.

France also proposed a ceasefire plan, which was rejected by Russia. Moscow insisted that before the ceasefire could take place, Georgia must withdraw its troops from the conflict area.

The two Presidents have also had several phone conversations in the past few days on the situation in South Ossetia and Georgia.

Reports say Georgian troops continue fire

There are reports from South Ossetia of continued small arms fire. Russian peacekeepers say Georgian troops are firing on their positions in the capital Tskhinvali.

A curfew in the capital of South Ossetia came into force on Tuesday.

The news comes as Moscow announced the end of military operations in the republic. Russia has urged Tbilisi to re-deploy its military outside South Ossetia and sign an agreement not to use force.

Authorities in South Ossetia say about two thousand people have died in the fighting. Their capital Tskhinvali lies in ruins. Russian emergency services say they are caring for 600 wounded in the area.

Work is now being carried-out to provide humanitarian aid to those who are still there, as well as to restore electricity, gas and water supplies to the city.

“I was here in 1992, memories are resurging. I have a very heavy impression from what I saw of the destruction there, of the people suffering. I hope this will never be repeated. We are going to discuss with the government of South Ossetia what help is needed in the first place. We'll take care of the necessary infrastructure - gas, water, electricity, hospitals - here we have everything needed for that,” Russia’s Emergency Minister Sergey Shoigu - now in the region - said.

The Russian Government has promised some $US 40 million to help re-build the city.

It is estimated that more than 30,000 Ossetians have fled the fighting to cross the border to Russia. Funerals are being held in North Ossetia.

‘Invasion’ map discovered

Russian troops have discovered a map, which defence officials say indicates Tbilisi's real intentions with regard to Abkhazia.

The map apparently shows consecutive steps for the invasion of the breakaway republic of Abkhazia. It was found in a Georgian military vehicle.

Russian peacekeepers say the discovery reflects the moves of Georgian troops in the area.

August 13 day of mourning in Russia

At least 1,600 people are believed to have been killed during five days of violence.

President Medvedev has issued a decree declaring August 13 a day of mourning in Russia for the humanitarian disaster in South Ossetia.

Flags will be flown at half-mast throughout the country.
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28896

[Lit_1nce]

Olga,

Interesting link on training and arm sales, but made me do my own investigating.. These ... http://www.state.gov/t/pm/ppa/sat/c14560.htm   are the figures for FMF .. But look at the other countries, and it doesn't particularly stand out..  Haven't had time to look up the IMET figures, but I suspect that the RussiaToday was adding figures together, where often it seems that these FMF grants pay for IMET.

Look at Egypt and Israel.. scary.. and Pakistan and Columbia are troubling... Pakistan.. I just know that place is going to be serious trouble in the future.

But these are supposed to be loans/grants.. I am kind of glad you posted that link, because it's kind of good to take a look at where my government is loaning money for arms sales.

[I/O]

http://www.state.gov/t/pm/ppa/sat/c14560.htm  

Below are the country account summaries for Foreign Military Financing for fiscal years 2005 (actual--funding actually provided in fiscal year 2005), 2006 (actual), 2007 (requested--funding requested under the President's fiscal year 2007 budget) and 2008 (requested). FMF provides grants for the acquisition of U.S. defense equipment, services, and training. It is intended to promote U.S. national security by contributing to regional and global stability, strengthening military support for democratically-elected governments and containing transnational threats, including terrorism and trafficking in narcotics, weapons, and persons. These grants enable allies and friends to improve their defense capabilities and foster closer military relationships between the U.S. and recipient nations.

Please someone tell me I am wrong, but that is "grant" I am reading? Grant, like as in gift? That is a fancy way of saying, "Pump money straight into the defence contractors/suppliers pockets via a foreign bank account and it will never be repaid". I always thought America was at least a moderately intelligent nation.  :noidea:

I/O

[Ronnie]

Ronnie, you are buying Bush's propaganda... it is not your fault 

good progress only with Bush's help  Of course he will not let his puppy to die economically especially after his puppy's last blunder 

BTW The United States has been providing military and technical support to independent Georgia for almost 15 years. http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28892

Oh Olga!  However did you guess that I called the whitehouse for economic data on Georgia?

I would find it odd indeed if the US did not provide training or advisors to Georgia's military.  Are suggesting that Georgia should have a military by no training or advisors.. If Georgia asked Russia for training Russia would refuse?  Georgia buys most of it's military hardware from Russia and purchases usually come with someone to show how to use it, i.e. T-72 Tank, etc.

[Lit_1nce]

Please someone tell me I am wrong, but that is "grant" I am reading? Grant, like as in gift? That is a fancy way of saying, "Pump money straight into the defence contractors/suppliers pockets via a foreign bank account and it will never be repaid". I always thought America was at least a moderately intelligent nation.  :noidea:

I/O

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Military_Financing

The Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program provides grants and loans to help countries purchase U.S.-produced weapons

but for the most part your right.