Russia is at it again!

[Ronnie]

Post American World?  What does that mean?  America will cease to exist when other countries rise due to following our example?  What foolishness!

As long as power-wielding nations are open, democratic and free and are guided by a "golden rule" philosophy, how can such a world be anything but a glorious victory for America? 

What some call "adventurism" is actually the teaching of nations how to "fish" so they can take care of themselves, become economically prosperous in their own right and perpetuate a cooperative peace.

Years ago, America under Richard Nixon made the decision to "engage" the Communist regime in China rather than allow a second cold war front.  To a large extent it has worked.  I feel it's now time to protect American jobs as I've never felt it was a good plan to redistribute our wealth to other countries, expecially when redistribution does not promote world prosperity or peace.

Further, I believe that the so-called "post America" scenario, is nonsense as we have wisely formed alliances with many other countries who share our ideals.  And despite the loud and hostile rhetoric to the contrary, America is more desired by the world than any other major nation.   More world citizens choose America as a new home than all other options combined.

Economically, who can suppose that America does not know how to measure her own ecomonic temperature and understand how to make changes to restore her to economic health?  To paraphrase Al Gore, if America has a fever, she will take steps to restore her health and I believe we are just now starting to feel a bit of an ache and understand something needs tending to.  The folly of the article BC posted is that it supposes nothing will change and current trends will continue unabated. 

I have written elsewhere that there are people in power who believe wealth needs to be taken from the haves and given to the "have nots."
These are not people who understand how wealth works.  When people and nations are given the tools to create wealth for themselves the whole world benefits. 

In the article someone said the USA trains a foreign PhD then tells them they have to leave.  Of course!  I he doesn't return to his poorer nation and edify it with what he as learned, where's the benefit to the world.  Some of our business leaders think the way for the US to be more competitive internationally is to reduce our wage standard.  Wrong!  The way to do it is to elevate the standard in other countries so at they can afford the products we export.

I'm going get off this soapbox now, but I hope it clarifies why I feel Russian influence has been rejected by every nation who is given the choice.  The Kremlin is consumed with jealous pride.  And, in that jealous pride lies the root of her problems.

[BC]

In the article someone said the USA trains a foreign PhD then tells them they have to leave.  Of course!  I he doesn't return to his poorer nation and edify it with what he as learned, where's the benefit to the world.  Some of our business leaders think the way for the US to be more competitive internationally is to reduce our wage standard.  Wrong!  The way to do it is to elevate the standard in other countries so at they can afford the products we export.

What do you export?  Even in EU, where the economic situation exists that US warez are affordable, I don't see them on the shelf.. McDonalds is proably the largest visible 'export'.

I like US automobile prices.. but the mpg makes the purchase unreasonable.

sorry.. don't have time to address the rest of your post at the moment, but this stuck out as an easy reply.

[Shadow]

As long as power-wielding nations are open, democratic and free and are guided by a "golden rule" philosophy, how can such a world be anything but a glorious victory for America? 

Very simple. If an open, democratic and free country wishes not to form an alliance with America, there is ground for war.
The war starts by propaganda and media attacks. Then constant criticism on any political decision.
Then followed by emphasizing any weakness in democracy or freedom. And finally taking every opportunity to stab its actions.
When this is replied by similar tactics it is called a proof of the evil intentions.
Allies are then requested to support these actions, and if the country is still alive and well, it is time to throw in some conflicts to prove evil.

Unfortunately, the number of countries that can afford to be truly democratic, open and free and can build any kind of power are very limited in numbers. The ones that coud, mostly are not allowed to.

[Ronnie]

What do you export?  Even in EU, where the economic situation exists that US warez are affordable, I don't see them on the shelf.. McDonalds is proably the largest visible 'export'.

I like US automobile prices.. but the mpg makes the purchase unreasonable.

sorry.. don't have time to address the rest of your post at the moment, but this stuck out as an easy reply.

Easy reply?  I don't get that.

The U.S. exports about $1.5 trillion which is about 11% of our GDP.  You ask "what" the U.S. exports, you can certainly research that on your own, but let me help you get started...My industry, tourism, is the number one export.  Airlines seats, hotel rooms, recreation, meals and gifts purchased by foreign visitors is considered an export.  Computers and software and other technology, aerospace, machinery, agricultural products from cotton to wheat to beef, medical equipment and medicine. Higher education, like tourism, is also a service export. 

I'll stop boring you here, because I realize the question was not so much genuine quest for information but more a reflection on your bitter attitude toward a country with whom you have personal issues.

I will only add that Russia's entire GDP of $1.3 trillion is still less than the value of America's exports.

Easy reply, indeed.
 

[BC]

Very simple. If an open, democratic and free country wishes not to form an alliance with America, there is ground for war.
The war starts by propaganda and media attacks. Then constant criticism on any political decision.
Then followed by emphasizing any weakness in democracy or freedom. And finally taking every opportunity to stab its actions.
When this is replied by similar tactics it is called a proof of the evil intentions.
Allies are then requested to support these actions, and if the country is still alive and well, it is time to throw in some conflicts to prove evil.

Unfortunately, the number of countries that can afford to be truly democratic, open and free and can build any kind of power are very limited in numbers. The ones that coud, mostly are not allowed to.

The road to democracy is lined with skeletons..  There are a lot of bones being thrown around at the moment but this too shall pass.

As long as the blows are landed with rhetoric all is well.

Post American World?  What does that mean?  America will cease to exist when other countries rise due to following our example?  What foolishness!

They will improve on your example.

As long as power-wielding nations are open, democratic and free and are guided by a "golden rule" philosophy, how can such a world be anything but a glorious victory for America? 

America must realize and respect that democracy can come in forms that are different than her own.
 

What some call "adventurism" is actually the teaching of nations how to "fish" so they can take care of themselves, become economically prosperous in their own right and perpetuate a cooperative peace.

Prosperity and peace do not go hand in hand.

Years ago, America under Richard Nixon made the decision to "engage" the Communist regime in China rather than allow a second cold war front.  To a large extent it has worked.  I feel it's now time to protect American jobs as I've never felt it was a good plan to redistribute our wealth to other countries, expecially when redistribution does not promote world prosperity or peace.

The only way to protect American jobs is to place restrictions or taxes on imported goods.  Might sound like a good idea, but it seems that that step has been already taken, with foreign companies opening factories in the US that are more profitable than those under US ownership..  The profits though, go overseas, or at the most reinvested in the US for similar gains.  The US being slaves to themselves is an interesting concept.

Further, I believe that the so-called "post America" scenario, is nonsense as we have wisely formed alliances with many other countries who share our ideals.  And despite the loud and hostile rhetoric to the contrary, America is more desired by the world than any other major nation.   More world citizens choose America as a new home than all other options combined.

Haven't looked at emigration statistics so can't provide any input on this at the moment.

Economically, who can suppose that America does not know how to measure her own ecomonic temperature and understand how to make changes to restore her to economic health?  To paraphrase Al Gore, if America has a fever, she will take steps to restore her health and I believe we are just now starting to feel a bit of an ache and understand something needs tending to.  The folly of the article BC posted is that it supposes nothing will change and current trends will continue unabated.  [

At the moment, policy tends toward shoving the weight of recovery onto the next generations.. a sort of credit that will catch on eventually, with repercussions that far exceed those of the current crises.

I have written elsewhere that there are people in power who believe wealth needs to be taken from the haves and given to the "have nots."
These are not people who understand how wealth works.  When people and nations are given the tools to create wealth for themselves the whole world benefits. 

If this is the case, rejoyce and don't complain when others do 'it' better than you do.

In the article someone said the USA trains a foreign PhD then tell[[s them they have to leave.  Of course!  I he doesn't return to his poorer nation and edify it with what he as learned, where's the benefit to the world.  Some of our business leaders think the way for the US to be more competitive internationally is to reduce our wage standard.  Wrong!  The way to do it is to elevate the standard in other countries so at they can afford the products we export.

Already addressed in my last post.. but an economy based on servicing itself will eventually implode, and already is.. lets take South Carolina with 200,000 jobs with foreign owned companies.. where would they be without them?  

I'm going get off this soapbox now, but I hope it clarifies why I feel Russian influence has been rejected by every nation who is given the choice.  The Kremlin is consumed with jealous pride.  And, in that jealous pride lies the root of her problems.

They are not consumed in jealous pride.. they are consumed and motivated with the first fruits.. it will take some time for them to adjust.. above and beyond that, I can only say 'heads up'.

[Ronnie]

Very simple. If an open, democratic and free country wishes not to form an alliance with America, there is ground for war.
The war starts by propaganda and media attacks. Then constant criticism on any political decision.
Then followed by emphasizing any weakness in democracy or freedom. And finally taking every opportunity to stab its actions.
When this is replied by similar tactics it is called a proof of the evil intentions.
Allies are then requested to support these actions, and if the country is still alive and well, it is time to throw in some conflicts to prove evil.

Unfortunately, the number of countries that can afford to be truly democratic, open and free and can build any kind of power are very limited in numbers. The ones that coud, mostly are not allowed to.

As usual Shadow, I have no idea what your vague generalities are meant to imply. 

Are you avoiding specifics for a reason? 

Which open, democratic and free country are you referring to?  Sadam Hussein's Iraq?  I know smokin' pot in your country isn't illegal but does that mean you have share the "benefits" with us?  No thanks.

[BC]

I'll stop boring you here, because I realize the question was not so much genuine quest for information but more a reflection on your bitter attitude toward a country with whom you have personal issues.

You keep alluding to some 'personal issues' .. I answered long ago.. was this somehow not enough for you?  I harbor no bitter attitudes, at the most objective observations.

I have expressed to many that I enjoy visiting the US but wouldn't like to live there.. is that some kind of crime?  Does it ruffle your feathers so much that your own 'comrade' thinks a bit differently than you?

[BC]

Which open, democratic and free country are you referring to?  Sadam Hussein's Iraq?  I know smokin' pot in your country isn't illegal but does that mean you have share the "benefits" with us?  No thanks.

Another democracy that doesn't match your own?.. -and you still have something negative to say about it?

That's really laughable, and even sad.

Don't tell me you haven't ever smoked pot... that's about un American as it gets..

Ronnie, I'd have no problem whatsoever meeting you in a NL coffee shop.  I think we would have fun.. ahh... I understand... you don't inhale... LOL

[Ronnie]

You keep alluding to some 'personal issues' .. I answered long ago.. was this somehow not enough for you?  I harbor no bitter attitudes, at the most objective observations.

I have expressed to many that I enjoy visiting the US but wouldn't like to live there.. is that some kind of crime?  Does it ruffle your feathers so much that your own 'comrade' thinks a bit differently than you?

You can think anyway you want BC.  The problem is you shoot from the hip, like a knee-jerk reaction set up by hostility not objectivity.  Look at your posts.  There is nothing objective in them..you are as one-sided as a person can get.  These posts of yours reek of antipathy for the U.S. 

I've lived in Europe 10% of my adult life.  I like it, especially Italy.  But when I was there last December and asked a Neapolitan news vendor in clear Italian, how to get to the museum (it was a half block away), she blew me off saying, "I'm too busy!"  I know Napoli is an embarassment to Italy, so I wan't surprised. But I know of no place in America (outside NYC) where this might happen.

I wrote peviously about a young immigrant family from Ukraine who arrived in Los Angeles and got stood up by their Russian contact.  They were taken in by a USCIS officer who make them her house guest for two weeks. 

Facts tend to infuriate the knee-jerk America haters like BC, Shadow and some others.   Like living in Italy or Holland better?  Great!  Got a beef with something about America that affects you?  Let's hear all about it, maybe it can be reconciled.  But if you only want to engage for the purpose of protecting your invested bias.  Stop wasting our time. 

[Ronnie]

Another democracy that doesn't match your own?.. -and you still have something negative to say about it?

That's really laughable, and even sad.

Don't tell me you haven't ever smoked pot... that's about un American as it gets..

Ronnie, I'd have no problem whatsoever meeting you in a NL coffee shop.  I think we would have fun.. ahh... I understand... you don't inhale... LOL

It may interest you to know that 75% of Californians don't smoke tobacco even.  I never have, so what interest would I have in smoking pot with you? 

Am I hearing you say the democracy in question was Iraq?  Now I get the joke.

[OlgaH]

Your hypocrisy amazes me.

wxman,

your hypocrisy amazes me more. You so easily call 1600 Ossetian civilian who killed by Geargian army and 40000 Ossetian civilian who are refugees as terrorists. You call Ossetians as terrorists just because they are tired and don't want to live any more under violent pressure by Georgian government.

BTW again  hypocrisy by an American TV network

A 12 year old girl and her aunt were describing how Russian soldiers saved them from the Georgian attack – but were bizarrely cut off after just two minutes.

The incident has sparked huge controversy over the issue of media impartiality, with Russian government officials calling it a violation of journalistic ethics.

Amanda Kokoeva, who comes from the San Francisco area, was visiting her relatives in South Ossetia for the summer.

On the night of August 7, she watched in horror as the war broke out. Amanda spent the night in her uncle's basement. The following morning, they fled to North Ossetia and eventually Moscow.

But they would have never made it to safety if it wasn't for the help of Russian troops, Amanda says. And she says that’s a part of her story that the American media has repeatedly left out.

Upon her return to the United States, she and her aunt Laura Tedeeva gave several interviews, including a live appearance on Fox News.

Laura told viewers: “I want you to know who is to blame for this conflict and that’s Mr Saakashvili who started this war and who is an aggressor. 2000 people were killed in one day...”

After a number of tentative attempts to stop her talking, at this moment the presenter more forcefully interrupted her, saying it was time for a commercial break.

“Yeah, I know you don’t want to hear that,” Laura responded.

Laura says she is not pro-Russia. Her mother is Georgian and her father is South Ossetian, but she simply wanted to tell the truth about what her family went through.

She told RT: “I wanted the Americans to know that Russia didn’t start that war.”

Laura says she prays for her family and hopes there will be no more bombing.

Amanda's father is currently in South Ossetia to make sure his relatives are out of harm's way. The family says everyone is fine and they will only leave their homeland if the fighting resumes.

Amanda hopes to see her father again soon. And despite her ordeal in South Ossetia, the 12-year-old girl would like to go back there one day.

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29104

"Gori in ruins"? You decide
Russia's ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin has dismissed media reports that the Georgian city of Gori is "in ruins." He called the allegations a "disinformation campaign" and pointed to the fact that Russian peacekeepers have in fact performed a humanitarian mission there.

The Russian military says it has been organising aid for locals who have remained in the city, and maintaining order on the ground to prevent looting.

People say they feel safer because the Russian soldiers protect them from the vandalism of local gangs.

But media outlets including CNN jumped on Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili’s claim to have witnessed "first hand" two Russian planes bombing the city, and reported it as fact.

Speaking from the UN headquarters in New York, Russia's UN ambassador said the allegations were part of a "disinformation campaign." (FULL STORY)

Footage shot by RT shows a ghost town, where a statue of Stalin towers over the main square. Yes, there is glass on the ground and damaged cars, but a ruined city it certainly is not.

If there is one Georgian city that can be added to the pages of history for being ravaged by war, it's Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia - and Gori will remain a footnote on the “propaganda war”.
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29033

Gori not badly damaged – UN aid convoy
A United Nations aid convoy, entering the Georgian town of Gori, says the buildings there do not appear to be badly damaged.
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29130

[OlgaH]

South Ossetian people will decide their destiny - OSCE chief
South Ossetia's constitutional future must be decided by its people, according to the leader of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

Secretary General Marc Perrin de Brichambaut made the comments following a visit to the breakaway republic in the wake of the five day conflict between Russia and Georgia.
   
"The destiny of South Ossetia will be decided by the South Ossetian people, taking into account history and the present realities of life," he said. "It is also necessary to take into account close cooperation and relations with North Ossetia."

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29114

 

[Lit_1nce]

As usual Shadow, I have no idea what your vague generalities are meant to imply. 

Are you avoiding specifics for a reason? 

Which open, democratic and free country are you referring to?  Sadam Hussein's Iraq?  I know smokin' pot in your country isn't illegal but does that mean you have share the "benefits" with us?  No thanks.

I can't speak for Shadow, but perhaps he was talking about Venezuela ?

[Ronnie]

I can't speak for Shadow, but perhaps he was talking about Venezuela ?

We had a war with Venzuela that our allies refused to join?  Duh. I feel so stupid.  I knew nothing about it.

[Ronnie]

wxman,

your hypocrisy amazes me more. You so easily call 1600 Ossetian civilian who killed by Geargian army and 40000 Ossetian civilian who are refugees as terrorists. You call Ossetians as terrorists just because they are tired and don't want to live any more under violent pressure by Georgian government.

BTW again  hypocrisy by an American TV network

Olga.  1600?  What about the 2,000 the little girl quoted (she should know...she was there...maybe she counted them).

Guess what Olga, Human Rights Watch sent internation representative to Tskhinvali.  They found no evidence of such numbers.  Read their report at HRW.org

ITN sent a reporter into S.Ossetia.  He interviewed a doctor at the Russian Mobile hospital.  He said they got about 70 injured people, mostly soldiers, each of the first 3 days.  When asked about the reports of 2,000 dead civilians, he said, "I can't confirm that."

Did it ever occur to you, Olga, the the figures are made up to justify  Russia's action?

The report you read about Fox news cutting of the little girl.  That full interview is posted upthread.  Watch it yourself, then you can decide if anyone was cut off.  The RT viewers didn't have a chance to see the interview so they could tell them anything and did.  But you can see it for yourself.  The interviewer was extremely accommodating even though the girl and her mother were more interested in getting out a piece of propaganda fed to them by someone (wonder who) than in answering any real questions.

[Lit_1nce]

Very simple. If an open, democratic and free country wishes not to form an alliance with America, there is ground for war.
The war starts by propaganda and media attacks. Then constant criticism on any political decision.
Then followed by emphasizing any weakness in democracy or freedom. And finally taking every opportunity to stab its actions.
When this is replied by similar tactics it is called a proof of the evil intentions.
Allies are then requested to support these actions, and if the country is still alive and well, it is time to throw in some conflicts to prove evil.

Unfortunately, the number of countries that can afford to be truly democratic, open and free and can build any kind of power are very limited in numbers. The ones that coud, mostly are not allowed to.

We obviously don't go to war with everyone we deem evil.. just most of them.. I think the point is that it is more of the "with us or against us" mentality, that seems to occur over and over... In the above post by Shadow, we reached the point just prior to the "throw in some conflicts" scenario... The process in the post felt more relevant to me with Venezuala, than Iraq, since Iraq didn't have a democracy.

[Ronnie]

That's what makes Shadow's post so much nonsense.  He says if we don't like a certain free and open democracy, then we go to war against them.  That simply has not happened.  So why make such an absurd statement? 

[OlgaH]

Guess what Olga, Human Rights Watch sent internation representative to Tskhinvali.  They found no evidence of such numbers.  Read their report at HRW.org

Interesting. HRW has photos of some injured Georgians but there is not any photos of injured Ossetians in the report  As usual 

The report you read about Fox news cutting of the little girl.  That full interview is posted upthread.  Watch it yourself, then you can decide if anyone was cut off. 

Please be so kind to post a link to that posted upthread full interview 

[OlgaH]

Ronnie

On 9th August 2008 Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told reporters  that some 1,500 people had been killed in South Ossetia since Friday, with the death toll rising. I think that Sergey Lavrov is responsible for his words, but I would be so happy to hear that the number of victims is much less than in reality.

[steviej]

Patrick J. Buchanan, a leading conservative American intellectual, on the Russian/Georgian conflict, and US reaction to it:
[I agree with his assessment]

Blowback from Bear Baiting

By Patrick Buchanan

"Mikheil Saakashvili’s decision to use the opening of the Olympic Games to cover Georgia’s invasion of its breakaway province of South Ossetia must rank in stupidity with Gamal Abdel-Nasser’s decision to close the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships.

Nasser’s blunder cost him the Sinai in the Six-Day War. Saakashvili’s blunder probably means permanent loss of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

After shelling and attacking what he claims is his own country, killing scores of his own Ossetian citizens and sending tens of thousands fleeing into Russia, Saakashvili’s army was whipped back into Georgia in 48 hours.

Vladimir Putin took the opportunity to kick the Georgian army out of Abkhazia, as well, to bomb Tbilisi and to seize Gori, birthplace of Stalin.

Reveling in his status as an intimate of George Bush, Dick Cheney and John McCain, and America’s lone democratic ally in the Caucasus, Saakashvili thought he could get away with a lightning coup and present the world with a fait accompli.

Mikheil did not reckon on the rage or resolve of the Bear.

American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight — Russia finished it. People who start wars don’t get to decide how and when they end.

Russia’s response was “disproportionate” and “brutal,” wailed Bush.

True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more “disproportionate”?

Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush. But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi?

Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing?

When the Soviet Union broke into 15 nations, we celebrated. When Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo broke from Serbia, we rejoiced. Why, then, the indignation when two provinces, whose peoples are ethnically separate from Georgians and who fought for their independence, should succeed in breaking away?

Are secessions and the dissolution of nations laudable only when they advance the agenda of the neocons, many of who viscerally detest Russia?

That Putin took the occasion of Saakashvili’s provocative and stupid stunt to administer an extra dose of punishment is undeniable. But is not Russian anger understandable? For years the West has rubbed Russia’s nose in her Cold War defeat and treated her like Weimar Germany.

When Moscow pulled the Red Army out of Europe, closed its bases in Cuba, dissolved the evil empire, let the Soviet Union break up into 15 states, and sought friendship and alliance with the United States, what did we do?

American carpetbaggers colluded with Muscovite Scalawags to loot the Russian nation. Breaking a pledge to Mikhail Gorbachev, we moved our military alliance into Eastern Europe, then onto Russia’s doorstep. Six Warsaw Pact nations and three former republics of the Soviet Union are now NATO members.

Bush, Cheney and McCain have pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. This would require the United States to go to war with Russia over Stalin’s birthplace and who has sovereignty over the Crimean Peninsula and Sebastopol, traditional home of Russia’s Black Sea fleet.

When did these become U.S. vital interests, justifying war with Russia?

The United States unilaterally abrogated the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty because our technology was superior, then planned to site anti-missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic to defend against Iranian missiles, though Iran has no ICBMs and no atomic bombs. A Russian counter-offer to have us together put an anti-missile system in Azerbaijan was rejected out of hand.

We built a Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey to cut Russia out. Then we helped dump over regimes friendly to Moscow with democratic “revolutions” in Ukraine and Georgia, and tried to repeat it in Belarus.

Americans have many fine qualities. A capacity to see ourselves as others see us is not high among them.

Imagine a world that never knew Ronald Reagan, where Europe had opted out of the Cold War after Moscow installed those SS-20 missiles east of the Elbe. And Europe had abandoned NATO, told us to go home and become subservient to Moscow.

How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?

For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia’s space and getting into Russia’s face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost — in Tbilisi. "

[Ronnie]

Here it is, Olya....

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ[/youtube]

[Lit_1nce]

That's what makes Shadow's post so much nonsense.  He says if we don't like a certain free and open democracy, then we go to war against them.  That simply has not happened.  So why make such an absurd statement? 

I only offered up something that kinda fit.. and all this may go back to previous comments about democracies better and worse than our own. I also have thoughts about that subject, but then this thread would stray further and further from the original topic.

[Ronnie]

Patrick J. Buchanan, a leading conservative American intellectual, on the Russian/Georgian conflict, and US reaction to it:
[I agree with his assessment]

Blowback from Bear Baiting

By Patrick Buchanan

"Mikheil Saakashvili’s decision to use the opening of the Olympic Games to cover Georgia’s invasion of its breakaway province of South Ossetia must rank in stupidity with Gamal Abdel-Nasser’s decision to close the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships.

Nasser’s blunder cost him the Sinai in the Six-Day War. Saakashvili’s blunder probably means permanent loss of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

After shelling and attacking what he claims is his own country, killing scores of his own Ossetian citizens and sending tens of thousands fleeing into Russia, Saakashvili’s army was whipped back into Georgia in 48 hours.

Vladimir Putin took the opportunity to kick the Georgian army out of Abkhazia, as well, to bomb Tbilisi and to seize Gori, birthplace of Stalin.

Reveling in his status as an intimate of George Bush, Dick Cheney and John McCain, and America’s lone democratic ally in the Caucasus, Saakashvili thought he could get away with a lightning coup and present the world with a fait accompli.

Mikheil did not reckon on the rage or resolve of the Bear.

American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight — Russia finished it. People who start wars don’t get to decide how and when they end.

Russia’s response was “disproportionate” and “brutal,” wailed Bush.

True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more “disproportionate”?

Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush. But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi?

Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing?

When the Soviet Union broke into 15 nations, we celebrated. When Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo broke from Serbia, we rejoiced. Why, then, the indignation when two provinces, whose peoples are ethnically separate from Georgians and who fought for their independence, should succeed in breaking away?

Are secessions and the dissolution of nations laudable only when they advance the agenda of the neocons, many of who viscerally detest Russia?

That Putin took the occasion of Saakashvili’s provocative and stupid stunt to administer an extra dose of punishment is undeniable. But is not Russian anger understandable? For years the West has rubbed Russia’s nose in her Cold War defeat and treated her like Weimar Germany.

When Moscow pulled the Red Army out of Europe, closed its bases in Cuba, dissolved the evil empire, let the Soviet Union break up into 15 states, and sought friendship and alliance with the United States, what did we do?

American carpetbaggers colluded with Muscovite Scalawags to loot the Russian nation. Breaking a pledge to Mikhail Gorbachev, we moved our military alliance into Eastern Europe, then onto Russia’s doorstep. Six Warsaw Pact nations and three former republics of the Soviet Union are now NATO members.

Bush, Cheney and McCain have pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. This would require the United States to go to war with Russia over Stalin’s birthplace and who has sovereignty over the Crimean Peninsula and Sebastopol, traditional home of Russia’s Black Sea fleet.

When did these become U.S. vital interests, justifying war with Russia?

The United States unilaterally abrogated the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty because our technology was superior, then planned to site anti-missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic to defend against Iranian missiles, though Iran has no ICBMs and no atomic bombs. A Russian counter-offer to have us together put an anti-missile system in Azerbaijan was rejected out of hand.

We built a Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey to cut Russia out. Then we helped dump over regimes friendly to Moscow with democratic “revolutions” in Ukraine and Georgia, and tried to repeat it in Belarus.

Americans have many fine qualities. A capacity to see ourselves as others see us is not high among them.

Imagine a world that never knew Ronald Reagan, where Europe had opted out of the Cold War after Moscow installed those SS-20 missiles east of the Elbe. And Europe had abandoned NATO, told us to go home and become subservient to Moscow.

How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?

For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia’s space and getting into Russia’s face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost — in Tbilisi. "

This is exactly the kind of wrong-headedness is what prevented his garning any measurable support in his past efforts to be president.    It's why Ron Paul has been laughed out of the race.  (Rudy Giuliani was right to nail him in that debate when he said 9/11 was our fault)

As I've said before, Pat Buchanan is only the second smartest person in his family - which is not much of a compliment to Bay.

[oldernotwiser]

Ronnie

It seems like you decided to discredit the messenger rather than the message.  Did he mistate facts?

[OlgaH]

Here it is, Olya....

Thank you. Here is also video http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29104/video