Russia is at it again!

[BC]

I would find it odd indeed if the US did not provide training or advisors to Georgia's military.  Are suggesting that Georgia should have a military by no training or advisors.. If Georgia asked Russia for training Russia would refuse?  Georgia buys most of it's military hardware from Russia and purchases usually come with someone to show how to use it, i.e. T-72 Tank, etc.

Gov't: Freeze arms sales to Georgia

Israel is not considered to be one of the main arms suppliers of Georgia. The scope of the defense deals between the two countries stands at $200 million. The two largest suppliers to Georgia are the United States and France.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009928.html

IIRC there are RU trade restrictions with Georgia that probably cover the sale of arms.

"Several months ago, we carried out an evaluation of the situation in Georgia and realized that Georgia and Russia were on a collision course. We have good relations with both, and don't want to back either in this conflict," the official said. "We therefore made a decision to drastically minimize sales of weapons to Georgia.

Frantic requests from Georgia to Israel for military hardware leading up to the current conflict with Russia set off alarm bells at the Ministry of Defense.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218104259498&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Asked about the motivation to initially engage in the sale of weaponry to Georgia despite concerns it might anger Russia, Yaron replied: “We did see that there was potential for a conflagration in the region but Georgia is a friendly state, it’s supported by the U.S., and so it was difficult to refuse.”

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/08/12/10947/

Interesting articles by the way.. shows how complex such dealings are and their long term impact..  hmm.. Israel cuts arms sales months ago because they realized something was going on..  There had to be a heck of a lot of intel available in many countries.. France, Germany, US, (they all share) that simply was not acted upon or ignored for whatever reason.. 

And the US Secretary of State comes back from vacation all bright and chirpy.. was wondering where she was the whole time.

[Ronnie]

Where's that cameraman now?

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkY0mawpIVc&feature=user[/youtube]

[Shadow]

Where's that cameraman now?

I did not see the buildings CNN showed in that movie 

Perhaps it is acceptable for you that if a world-wide followed broadcasting company does not have pictures of a bombed city available they can show other pictures of bombed houses without explanation. For me that is clear deceit of the public.
The issue is not if the Russians did bomb the city. The issue is that CNN showed something that was not correct. If they wish to be independent and free media they should not lower their standards to broadcasting false images.

[Ronnie]

April 3, 2008.  Georgia is denied NATO admission

April 21, 2008..Peacekeepers just doing their job..

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGkX6K_G-9w&feature=related[/youtube]

[BC]

Here is another good overview

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/2008/08/guest_post_by_d_1/

[Ronnie]

Last fall, Russian peacekeepers illegally ventured across the border into Georgia where they are met by Georgian police.  The young soldiers seem intent on picking a fight.    President Saakashvili is called and arrives by helicopter who chews out the Russian officer in charge, and orders them to get back across the border.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkc1Z4LV1wo&feature=related[/youtube]

[Ronnie]

I did not see the buildings CNN showed in that movie 

Perhaps it is acceptable for you that if a world-wide followed broadcasting company does not have pictures of a bombed city available they can show other pictures of bombed houses without explanation. For me that is clear deceit of the public.
The issue is not if the Russians did bomb the city. The issue is that CNN showed something that was not correct. If they wish to be independent and free media they should not lower their standards to broadcasting false images.

So for you Shadow the issue is not if the story is right but if the peripheral details are right.  Everyone who has ever had a press story written about them or about something they are intimately familiar with knows the press get something wrong in the article..  If the incident occurred on Elm Street but the article says Maple Street...it's bogus.  If the press announces that the president's dog is expecting puppies, they they can't show a file photo of the dog because it was taken a year earlier?

I doubt you have been to either city so you don't know if the CNN photo was wrong or not.  But you have no doubt about the cameraman who, as it turns out works for the Russian press.  A Russian press who is still denying any military action occurred in Gori or was at that time. 

Here's a news flash for you Shadow, the world has hundreds, if not thousands of English language news sources...including our friends at Al Jazeera.  Only RT was refusing to acknowledge the facts of the Russian military hitting civilian target outside the disputed territories.  It makes them look awfully untrustworthy.... if facts matter.

 

[Shadow]

So for you Shadow the issue is not if the story is right but if the peripheral details are right.  Everyone who has ever had a press story written about them or about something they are intimately familiar with knows the press get something wrong in the article..  If the incident occurred on Elm Street but the article says Maple Street...it's bogus.  If the press announces that the president's dog is expecting puppies, they they can't show a file photo of the dog because it was taken a year earlier?

I doubt you have been to either city so you don't know if the CNN photo was wrong or not.  But you have no doubt about the cameraman who, as it turns out works for the Russian press.  A Russian press who is still denying any military action occurred in Gori or was at that time. 

Here's a news flash for you Shadow, the world has hundreds, if not thousands of English language news sources...including our friends at Al Jazeera.  Only RT was refusing to acknowledge the facts of the Russian military hitting civilian target outside the disputed territories.  It makes them look awfully untrustworthy.... if facts matter.

Ronnie the first thing you learn in news writing is check your sources.
If the street is wrong, the incident did not occur there, and just because there was an incident somewhere does not mean that the news item was right. If Georgia attacked South Ossetia and the news reports they attack Abkhazia then according to you its no problem because there was an attack.
If the president's dog has puppies it is ok to show a picture of the dog from the archives. What is wrong is to show a picture of the reporters dog who also has puppies while telling its the presidents dog.

Of course CNN takes the images from the Russian media, they did not have time to go there themselves. But they showed the wrong images, and the report of RT makes that clear. That does not mean RT is not biased towards Russia, just that in this case they have a very valid point.

But please do not let facts confuse your opinion.

[diverboy70]

He's such a happy puppy with his girl in that picture, isn't he ?   :kissing:

Steviej,

I certainly feel like a happy puppy  But I will be even happier on Saturday when I get to see my sweetheart again!     

[diverboy70]

Congrats DB..... in case you didn't notice you just received your Full 'Three Star' Membership!!!  Check your Profile Photo

Thanks utrobina 

I don't really feel like a "three star" yet!  But I am honored to be part of this forum with its wealth of knowledge....and opinions 

[steviej]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_lobbyist

There's no end to this bullsh*t, is there ...

[Ronnie]

. That does not mean RT is not biased towards Russia, just that in this case they have a very valid point.

But please do not let facts confuse your opinion.

Insults don't become you Shadow.  There's no reason for it. 

It is a fact that Russia bombed Gori.  If you want to dispute that by saying that one news network, in so reporting, showed a picture of the wrong city (a claim that is unknowable by us and by your own admission comes from a biased source) then you should make your best case. 

Did you see the Al Jazeera report BTW?  There were many Russian viewers on Youtube who comment that the pictures were fake, the people in the report were actors.  I have long said, I feel sorry for Russian people, isolated in the world by the deeds of their leaders, past and present.  Yet is they who elect leaders based on how defiant he is to the rest of the world, thus digging themselves into a deeper hole every year.

It was very interesting to read globalvoicesonine.org.  comments from the Russians living in Poti, Gori and elsewhere in Georgia agonizing over the fact that Moscow was bombing them and their neighbors.  In a poll done by the NYTimes, Russian students where asked to answer about 5 questions dealing with the situation.  The final question was Who can Russia Trust?

Most answers were " Nobody"

Those who mentioned other world leaders, mentioned "Ahmadinajad, Hugo Chavez, Quadafi, or Kim Jung-Il."  No comment.

[Ronnie]

Dutch Journalist killed in Georgia.  Greek journalist says "we never saw Georgian military inside Gori.  The bombing was aimed a civilians with the intent of terrorizing them."

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oz2AA9MZrw[/youtube]

[wxman]

BTW The United States has been providing military and technical support to independent Georgia for almost 15 years. http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28892

What amazes me is that you don't even mention that Russia has been arming and aiding the South Ossetian separatists and militia since Georgia became a country. They are basically arming terrorists in another country.  South Ossetia is fully recognized, even by Russia, as part of GEORGIA. Yet you are upset that the US has been providing military aid and technical support to a country that has requested it, but yet find no problem that Russia is providing weapons to separatists against the wishes of that very nation! How would you feel if the US were to send weapons to Chechen rebels against the wishes of the Russian government? Your hypocrisy amazes me.

[BC]

Russians may not be responsible for cyberattacks on Georgia

According to Gadi Evron, former Chief information security officer (CISO) for the Israeli government's ISP, there's compelling historical evidence to suggest that the Russian military is not involved. He confirms that Georgian websites are under botnet attack, and that yes, these attacks are affecting that country's infrastructure, but then notes that every politically tense moment over the past ten years has been followed by a spate of online attacks. It was only after Estonia made its well-publicized (and ultimately inaccurate) accusations against Russia that such attacks began to be referred to as cyberwarfare instead of politically motivated hackers.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080813-georgian-attacks-might-not-be-russians-after-all.html

Dutch Journalist killed in Georgia.  Greek journalist says "we never saw Georgian military inside Gori.  The bombing was aimed a civilians with the intent of terrorizing them."

Using the same weight of conjecture used in justifying the original cyberattack post, one could ask whether or not the bombing mention was done by Georgia itself.. to keep up their media campaign.

Some things are just not known.. In fact more is still not known than has been verified.

Patience folks.

[wxman]

Using the same weight of conjecture used in justifying the original cyberattack post, one could ask whether or not the bombing mention was done by Georgia itself.. to keep up their media campaign.

Some things are just not known.. In fact more is still not known than has been verified.

Patience folks.

I don't think we will ever know who really killed the journalist, unless someone admits it. A bomb crater won't tell us much. Both sides use Russia made weapons. Actually not just both sides.  Add in the South Ossetia militia, and you will find nothing but confusion over there right now. This conflict needs to come to an end soon, otherwise, someone is going to get an itchy finger and shoot down a relief plane, causing this to go much beyond just a regional conflict.  As history as shown time after time, it's the small conflicts that erupt into major wars. If this isn't resolved quickly, the odds of it escalating into something major increase dramatically. My bets are on a major escalation.

[Shadow]

Ronnie I did not say that the Russians did not at some time bomb Gori.
However at the time CNN showed the pictured they might not even have been in the city. Today the Georgian President said that the Russian tanks were driving through Gori, but the journalists there saw nothing.
This is why I feel bad about showing pictures of destroyed buildings on a rumour. I hope you can agree with that.

The case of the Dutch cameraman is pretty strange. If you have seen the pictures, you will see no panic on the streets. There was one explosion that killed the cameraman, injured a reporter and killed three other people, injuring one more.
At the time the cameraman was filming a bad car accident. http://www.daylife.com/words/akkermans/photos/all/1
As you see, no destroyed buildings bombed cars or damage.
The best explanation for the incident is that some soldier mistook the professional camera for a weapon.

[Shadow]

What amazes me is that you don't even mention that Russia has been arming and aiding the South Ossetian separatists and militia since Georgia became a country. They are basically arming terrorists in another country.  South Ossetia is fully recognized, even by Russia, as part of GEORGIA. Yet you are upset that the US has been providing military aid and technical support to a country that has requested it, but yet find no problem that Russia is providing weapons to separatists against the wishes of that very nation! How would you feel if the US were to send weapons to Chechen rebels against the wishes of the Russian government? Your hypocrisy amazes me.

Georgia became independent under the condition that they would hold a referendum and allow any parts of their country that wished to separate, like they got separation from the Soviet-Union. South Ossetia has been an autonomous region in Georgia since they were presented by Stalin, and took the chance to request separation. However Georgia has time after time declared the referenda invalid.
Russian troops have been in the area since 1993 as peace keepers.
Russia has no desire to declare unilateral recognition, they prefer to intermediate in a separation that will be recognized by Georgia.
Unfortunately the Georgian agression seems intent on ending the 80-year autonomy and bringing the area under state control.

The total situation is way more complicated the further you go back.
However what should not be forgotten is that Georgia cast the first stone that led to this war. Turning them in to victims would fit their ideas well and would mean disaster for South Ossetia, even worse disaster than this war they are already in.

[wxman]

Georgia became independent under the condition that they would hold a referendum and allow any parts of their country that wished to separate, like they got separation from the Soviet-Union. South Ossetia has been an autonomous region in Georgia since they were presented by Stalin, and took the chance to request separation. However Georgia has time after time declared the referenda invalid.
Russian troops have been in the area since 1993 as peace keepers.
Russia has no desire to declare unilateral recognition, they prefer to intermediate in a separation that will be recognized by Georgia.
Unfortunately the Georgian agression seems intent on ending the 80-year autonomy and bringing the area under state control.

The total situation is way more complicated the further you go back.
However what should not be forgotten is that Georgia cast the first stone that led to this war. Turning them in to victims would fit their ideas well and would mean disaster for South Ossetia, even worse disaster than this war they are already in.

Who really knows when the first shot was fired. Maybe it was 10 years ago? This just didn't start last week. Russia needs to take responsibility for creating instability over the long haul by arming separatists in another country. What did they expect would happen? Giving weapons to rebels in another country in only going to lead to tension, and someone is going to pull the trigger. If they were truly trying to maintain peace since 1993, why give weapons to separatists? Simple. They were hoping a conflict would erupt, and thus giving them an excuse to invade Georgia. They were going to let this sleeping dog lie, until a western leaning government emerged. In the end it really has to do with political alliances of the former Soviet republics. Those choosing to be affiliated with the west, will not be allowed to continue such alliances. South Ossetia was just an excuse, not a reason. Don't kid yourself. Ukraine is next. Russia won't stand for this political decree, especially since Putin doesn't even think of Ukraine as a real state.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218446193667&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[BC]

I don't think we will ever know who really killed the journalist, unless someone admits it. A bomb crater won't tell us much. Both sides use Russia made weapons. Actually not just both sides.  Add in the South Ossetia militia, and you will find nothing but confusion over there right now. This conflict needs to come to an end soon, otherwise, someone is going to get an itchy finger and shoot down a relief plane, causing this to go much beyond just a regional conflict.  As history as shown time after time, it's the small conflicts that erupt into major wars. If this isn't resolved quickly, the odds of it escalating into something major increase dramatically. My bets are on a major escalation.

I believe we are now on the same wavelength.

Unfortunately, rhetoric is getting louder and louder, not between Georgia and Russia, but the US and Russia.  Just thinking about humanitarian relief in the form of US Navy warships delivering them I really wonder who is escalating what.  Obviously buttons are being pushed.

I am a little disappointed with Bush's presentation.  Before, during periods of such crisis we were often taken to the pentagon press room where fancy satellite pictures show what is happening when.  With the capabilities available, it should be quite easy to identify if RU tanks are in Gori or just sitting around the base on the outskirts where Georgian troops were stationed, or neither.

Of course there is a lot of looting going on, of course there will be some minor skirmishes that linger.  The Georgian president is really overdoing it with the press, with tanks rolling all over the place causing mass destruction.  It's almost as if he wants to keep the press momentum.  In the last interview he was cut short a couple of times for rambling on and on with accusations of this or that.. almost as if he wants to distract from what is really going on.  In his head he is still under seige.

[wxman]

I am a little disappointed with Bush's presentation.  Before, during periods of such crisis we were often taken to the pentagon press room where fancy satellite pictures show what is happening when.  With the capabilities available, it should be quite easy to identify if RU tanks are in Gori or just sitting around the base on the outskirts where Georgian troops were stationed, or neither.

I believe because this conflict caught the US by surprise. The military satellites have their eyes on other parts of the world right now. It does take some time to change where the camera looks, not just a few simple button pushes. Of course Russia could be doing this under the veil of cloud cover, as any smart military would, making satellites useless. When you see almost real time pictures from a satellite, you can safely bet that they were positioned to look at that area well ahead of time. That's why we had almost real time images of Iraq. It was planned well in advance. That's why I think the US was caught by surprise on this incident, which tells me they had little to do with it, contrary to what Russia is claiming.

[Ronnie]

When the RT announcer says presidential candidate Gloria La Riva sees the conflict differently from the other candidates and says La Riva is little known outside the US, it implies that she is well known inside the US.  Maybe it's just me, but does anyone know this woman?

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3R-aZf5QDk&feature=user[/youtube]

[BC]

wx,

Resources are available.. After all we are talking about the southern border of Russia.. LOL. In ALL the reports not a drop of rain.

Suprised.. yes that is the word.. The greatest intelligence gathering machine in the world simply cannot afford to be 'surprised'.. not after the last big surprise.

I just don't buy it, and that makes it reek even more.

[Ronnie]

In middle school, a little dork shot a spitwad at a kid who was a friend of the school's 200-pound bully.  The bully chased the dork down and beat the hell out of him breaking his nose and jaw. 

Bully claimed he was justified.  Was he?
 

[SANDRO43]

Of course Russia could be doing this under the veil of cloud cover, as any smart military would, making satellites useless.

Years ago, maybe :

One of the U.S. National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) mottos is "We Own the Night," indicating the agency's ability to collect data anytime of day in any weather anywhere.

http://www.spacetoday.org/Satellites/YugoWarSats.html