Odessa and AnastasiaDate. A Risky Proposition.

[Faux Pas]

neo

That is an excellent post and trip report. I understood from the beginning of your thread (I believe) what your "quest" was about. My hat is off to you for the detailed trip report and the subsequent remarks. I see it as factual and should be required reading for any entering into this fray. Very educational and laid out easy to understand format.

You've been around the block enough to know and your remarks are worth gold. Thanks for taking the time to post it. My belief is, even though you knew what you were doing, getting into and attempting to go against the grain and snatching what you thought a "good girl" from the clutches of AW, you failed. The failure is no reflection on you as an individual. It is a system that is designed for the men to fail. Those who do not are the exception and not the rule and that does not reflect on them either.

Good Thread. Those that read it and save themselves from AW and the like should tribute you 10%

[ML]

Despite your protestations to the contrary; you and others like  you ARE SPOILING this for many others.

Sure you can say that the gals at this particular agency are used to this and there are plenty of RM who spend even more money on them.  But that is beside the point.

The point is these gals report back to their family and friends (who may not necessarily be 9s or 10s) about how this western guy threw this money at me.

These other gals then spread this word around to everyone they know.

And when the more rational, normal guy shows up; he  ends up dead in the water because he won't throw money at the gal he goes to visit; and she is disappointed. 

Result, two people who could have made a great couple get nowhere because the gal has all built up in her mind how she is going to be taken to $500 dinners and on a $1,000 shopping spree.

[Rubicon]

Despite your protestations to the contrary; you and others like  you ARE SPOILING this for many others.

Sure you can say that the gals at this particular agency are used to this and there are plenty of RM who spend even more money on them.  But that is beside the point.

The point is these gals report back to their family and friends (who may not necessarily be 9s or 10s) about how this western guy threw this money at me.

These other gals then spread this word around to everyone they know.

And when the more rational, normal guy shows up; he  ends up dead in the water because he won't throw money at the gal he goes to visit; and she is disappointed.  

Result, two people who could have made a great couple get nowhere because the gal has all built up in her mind how she is going to be taken to $500 dinners and on a $1,000 shopping spree.

ManLooking:

There is nothing wrong with being idealistic or romantic about your visions of how things should be, but you you should be willing to open your eyes to how things really are.  As Neo has very clearly pointed out playing people is just part of Russian and Ukrainian culture.  If you don't like that than you are probably fishing in the wrong pond.  If you accept it and you are tough but sweet with the woman you like, if she really likes you as well than things will work out for you.  I don't think anybody here has precise statistics as to how many western men are successful at dating and marrying a woman in the FSU, but the odds seem to be against you to begin with.  If you play your state's lottery you know that your odds of winning are only 1 in 18 million.  The odds of winning in this endeavor are probably better than that but perhaps still a longshot.  And all the more reason to AVOID AGENCY GIRLS!

[Vincenzo]

And when the more rational, normal guy shows up; he  ends up dead in the water because he won't throw money at the gal he goes to visit; and she is disappointed.

A normal guy shouldn't travel to Odessa. Every Western man travels there because it seems easy; so he shouldn't.
 There are thousands of small cities in Russia or the Ukraine, etc.

I don't think anastasia has any real ladies. When a real woman looking for a real man joins the website, nobody writes to her because she is overshadowed by model looking game players. And she quits.

[neo]

ML

your post is either excellent trolling or very naive.

I think the fact that I failed and many other western guys failed despite throwing money at such girls tells you a lot about their mindset that they are happy to settle for their UA boyfriends.

its a very simple point: they weren't serious in the first place. they are not spoiling some future romance as you suggest because any girl who behaves this way is not likely to be motivated by money in a LTR otherwise when a guy did throw it at her she would bag him.

Its just a job to them - something to pay the bills. any girl who has a decent job in UA doesn't need to behave this way and would not risk a good relationship to set her stall out so badly.

I think i clearly know this better than you because reading your post looks like the entire of UA women are in some sort of Jason Bourne Esque plot against WM.

Two cases in point:

I visit a teacher in Kharkov. shes on a low grade teachers salary. for our second date she takes me on the metro (and she pays), to the ice skating rink, she pays for the ice skating, and she buys me dinner afterwards. she never once asked for money and she earned a fraction of what i did. she was a respectable family girl with a good job.

Second point, young doctor I know of, again. always paid for taxi's and paid for bowling. it was all i could do to get her to accept a small gift.

There are VERY different types of women in Ukraine just as anywhere, a decent girl from a solid family with a professional education and her own job is likely to behave just as well as her western counterpart. other girls in lesser situations are more prey to behaving in morally questionable ways just as girls are in the states who choose to become strippers.

you cannot assume one bears any relation on the other, the teacher and doctor above aren't going to turn into scammers overnight just because someone else did it.

Think about it logically, they would lose their professional reputation, possibly their job and shame their family.

my suggestion: get out from behind the keyboard and go and meet some real people. your view that we are 'spoiling it for you' is entirely based on your very narrow view of a country from a MOB perspective and not at all representative of a society of 50M + different individuals.

Nice troll though.

Vincezo is correct. I know 3 girls that quit AW because they said that they were plagued by perverts and lunatics and the girls prepared to half naked girls got all the attention and then played the guys as we have seen so nobody thought they were serious.

this is why rubicon is right: agency model is a dead duck. its so broken its not even funny any more. if you want a sincere girl stick to dating non agency girls, the odds are much better.

[Hammer2722]

 if you want a sincere girl stick to dating non agency girls, the odds are much better.

Amen to that brother!!!!!

[ML]

My post is neither naive nor idealistic.

It doesn't matter whether a guy is looking at the same agency Neo used or any of a hundred other sites.

And it doesn't matter if he contacts gals through personal ads or meets them in a supermarket in any  city in FSU.

The point is most if not all of these gals hear about other gals who had money thrown at  them the way Neo did.  They come to expect it also.

Even if they really don't fully expect it, they are disappointed it didn't happen to them and feel less about their guy who might just be the perfect guy for them, except for this fantasy they have which is perpetuated by guys like Neo.

[dbneeley]

My post is neither naive nor idealistic.

It doesn't matter whether a guy is looking at the same agency Neo used or any of a hundred other sites.

And it doesn't matter if he contacts gals through personal ads or meets them in a supermarket in any  city in FSU.

The point is most if not all of these gals hear about other gals who had money thrown at  them the way Neo did.  They come to expect it also.

Even if they really don't fully expect it, they are disappointed it didn't happen to them and feel less about their guy who might just be the perfect guy for them, except for this fantasy they have which is perpetuated by guys like Neo.

ML,

Sorry, but from my perspective you do come across as seriously naive. How you might be qualified to judge that "most if not all of these gals" may hear about and expect lavish treatment I do not know. As Neo has pointed out, there is a huge variety of people in the FSU and such generalizations are rather silly absent some sort of real experience.

Another term I keep reading in this thread is "Agency Girls" --- as if all agencies are the same and attract the same types of ladies. In my experience, that is simply not true. Although I never have used it personally, I have heard from multiple sources that Kevin Hayes' Kherson Girls seems to do a rather good job at weeding out the insincere women--to give but one example.

One advantage a decent agency may offer is that there is no question that the ladies are willing to leave to live elsewhere for the right man. Certainly some will be desperate to do so, and may have an urge to grab the first ticket out of Dodge.

I met my wife through a now long-dead free introduction site. She was looking for the right man for her--but she had no overwhelming desire to leave Ukraine unless it was necessary to do so. She was overjoyed when finally it became possible to live together full time here in Ukraine, in fact. I've seen many others with the same attitudes over the years, too.

Too many of you guys form a very simplistic impression of the society here and of the ladies in it. The truth is simply not that cut and dried.

David

[Gator]

These are not desperate girls who cannot get a date back home, they do the dating thing with WM to get nice designer gifts, pocket money to spend on themselves and then they get what they want (a casual good looking BF) right here in the city to take them out to party, thats why they wont take their WM to a club or bar on a Friday Night because they are not going to put the word out to the local UA college jocks that this is what they do.

The RM are giving them gifts too.  I see this in my lady's 22-yo daughter.  Not only is the daughter beautiful, she is voluptuous of legendary proportions.  She is not a night club party girl, preferring family life.  She dates in a group with friends her age yet not every Friday and Saturday.  From what the mother says, the daughter is far from promiscuous.  In Russia she was close with only one young man who comes from a "fine family." 

RM in Russia

Being a remarkable beauty, she has been detected by the radar of the wealthy RM.  One RM has showered expensive gifts (fine fur coat, diamond bracelet, etc.) on her.  She accepts them and gives him nothing in return other than a smile and a spasibo.  One reason - he is married and has a young child. 

He continues to pursue her, and she will occasionally go to dinner with him.  He has told her it would be only about sex, and has offered a shopping trip to Italy or Abu Dhabi, to which she says "No."   I can only imagine the attention given by RM to pretty young RW who are sexual. 

RM in Florida

Now that she is enrolled at a Florida university, she is receiving a lot of attention.  A young RM residing in Florida found her on Facebook, and arranged a meeting with her for lunch at school.  She was excited to have the opportunity to talk in Russian.  That day when i drove her to school she wore her finest dress and perfume.  Fast forward....that afternoon when I picked her up...he is married...she is disappointed and told him no future meetings.   It seems that married RM have few reservations about extramarital affairs.

Saudi Student in Florida

Recently a Saudi student her age has been pursuing her.  He drives her to and from school, saving me time for which I am thankful.  Yet, i am worried that he may not be serious.  Regardless of his intentions, she does not go out in the evening with him.  He has purchased her a dress from Banana Republic and gave her a gold necklace with diamonds!         

Young AM in Florida

She dated a 29-yo AM not much older than her, a good guy, and a friend of one of my friends.  He liked her.  He gave her no pretty gifts.   She liked him, but only as a friend. The lack of gifts had nothing to do with her feelings.  He was looking for something more serious, and they decided not to meet anymore.

Then when they hit 25+ and the dates get poor quality or dry up she hangs up her party shoes and looks for a WM with a good life to settle down and benefit from.

I have been told the  threshold is 30-yo.

[Vincenzo]

The point is most if not all of these gals hear about other gals who had money thrown at  them the way Neo did.  They come to expect it also.

You're wrong.

For example, there are people from Georgia and Armenia who come to the Ukraine and Russia with a lot of dollars. They throw dollar bills at strippers and prostitutes. But regular girls call them "a black ass" and don't want to deal with them.

[ML]

For the polar opposite viewpoint, read KenC excellent post in Starting Out:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=6728.0

[SFandEE]

she is voluptuous of legendary proportions.

My curiosity requires me to ask

[LAman]

My post is neither naive nor idealistic.

It doesn't matter whether a guy is looking at the same agency Neo used or any of a hundred other sites.

And it doesn't matter if he contacts gals through personal ads or meets them in a supermarket in any  city in FSU.

The point is most if not all of these gals hear about other gals who had money thrown at  them the way Neo did.  They come to expect it also.

Even if they really don't fully expect it, they are disappointed it didn't happen to them and feel less about their guy who might just be the perfect guy for them, except for this fantasy they have which is perpetuated by guys like Neo.

I've got to agree with MAN of this from first hand experience.
I have met dozens of girls( not quite 100) from many different parts of Ukraine( some in Russia too) and there is a reason that many take guys shopping when they meet...it is not by chance, there is an alterior motive here. They had HEARD this from others girls. Yes, there are agencies telling girls that this happens but best proof is a girl that was actually lavished by some foreigner. I go along with the shopping because I like to see a girls taste in clothes but when they start asking for things.....I see the end coming!!!! Some girls are very clever on how they
want something bought by modeling clothes for you. In fact one girl from Nikolaev asked me to come into the fitting room....she was, hmmmmm, not fully clothed........asking me if I like the way her the top fit........while trying NOT to look down!!!!!!!
And no she didn't get the top!!!!
Another girl in Chisinau, after several months of e-mailing, we finally met. I considered her one of the most sincere, genuine girls I had spoken/written to, really down to earth. I met her at a mall near Stefan, got into taxi so we can go to dinner, she asked if we can make a quick errand..... it was to the Jumbo Mall, she wanted to look at shoes, telling me her 'boots' are worn. After 10 minutes, she found a pair she liked, then proceeded to 'ask' me to buy her them, after a slight chuckle, I asked her, if I buy them for her, what do I get??????    Never spoke to her again after dinner.
These are only two instances....but it happens a lot based on what I have seen. This is definately a LEARNED behavior.
 

[Faux Pas]

I've got to agree with MAN of this from first hand experience.

I disagree.

I have met dozens of girls( not quite 100) from many different parts of Ukraine( some in Russia too) and there is a reason that many take guys shopping when they meet...it is not by chance, there is an alterior motive here.
These are only two instances....but it happens a lot based on what I have seen. This is definately a LEARNED behavior.

The idea that because some sex tourist or Billy Bob came before you and spent obscene amounts of money on some women or a half sincere guy trying to buy a women far out of his league in the larger picture makes not one bit of difference. To you or anyone else who may follow you.


LA you have always struck me as a good level headed guy but if you have met this many women and they all turn into shopping bunnies or gold diggers you need to check what you are doing. Either your methods or the pond you are fishing in is seriously flawed. Einstein says the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again while expecting different results

[dbneeley]

For some reason, these lists have a definite percentage of men who have little clue about women. Often, they seek simple, hard-and-fast rules they regard as "deal breakers"--so, as one gentlemen has said he has gone through a hundred or more women without finding anyone sincere or suitable.


For some reason, it doesn't seem to dawn on them that "If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting."


Somewhere along the line, those who meet a hundred different ladies without finding someone to seriously pursue hardly seems the type to give relationship or wife-seeking advice--except perhaps for some of the things not to do.


The first lady I met in Ukraine, I told her I intended to get her and her son some kind of gift, but that I had wanted to be sure it was something they would need and appreciate. We went shopping at the largest flea market in Kyiv--so big it has its own subway stop--and I bought her new boots (hers were very obviously nearly shot) and new shoes for her growing boy. Neither were outstandingly expensive. I picked up a couple smaller things I fancied for them as well--at which point she told me I was spending too much on them and that she would accept nothing else. I considered that shopping trip illuminating and fully within reason--and, note that I was the one who initiated it.


The next week, I spent with the second lady I had gone to meet. As a doctor, I thought it likely she could use a very good stethoscope--so I bought one in Dallas and took it with me. To me, this was a worthwhile "hostess gift" as she had offered me the use of her convertible couch rather than renting a flat or a hotel room. She was overwhelmed with the stethoscope, by the way, since she had been using the very cheap one she had bought for medical school a couple decades before.


In both cases, the ladies were aware that I am not "cheap" but that I also keep spending within my plan and don't go overboard.


Some ladies, rather than expecting to be lavished with gifts, view a shopping trip as a means of evaluating the man involved to determine that aspect of his character. Some will ask for things well beyond what they expect merely to see the man's reaction. If he goes for it all, they will generally not respect him because of such foolishness--if he politely but firmly draws a line, he may be due for even more serious consideration.


Obviously, not all are like this--but enough are that it makes little sense to base rejection of a potential mate because of perceived issues that simply may or may not be true.


David

[Misha]

I've got to agree with MAN of this from first hand experience.
I have met dozens of girls( not quite 100) from many different parts of Ukraine( some in Russia too) and there is a reason that many take guys shopping when they meet...it is not by chance, there is an alterior motive here. They had HEARD this from others girls. Yes, there are agencies telling girls that this happens but best proof is a girl that was actually lavished by some foreigner. I go along with the shopping because I like to see a girls taste in clothes but when they start asking for things.....I see the end coming!!!!

I did not go on one hundred dates, but not one of the women that I met ever asked me to go shopping. We simply did the usual first date stuff: cafe or restaurant. All of the woman that I met would have had too much pride to take a guy out shopping on the first date in the hopes that he will buy them something. Where are you meeting these women? Perhaps it is time, as Faux Pas and David say, to start looking at other venues.

[LAman]

Wow, I am not surprised with the disagreements.
I am only telling what I have seen and heard from girls. Most of my experiences have been in Odessa and mostly NOT from girls on dating agencies( they would not be caught dead in one), it is what they hear from other girls. I only met them through friends I have there. Many know little english and have no desire for foreign men...it is just what was heard.
 
As far as this thread goes, it has little to do with anastasia or odessa, could have been any city or any dating site. It is more about an immature young girl and a model type girl that probably was catered to her whole life. I felt this 'experiment' was doomed from the beginning. I have always tried to separate the girl from money, you want her to have interest in yourself NOT your money. But I am sure many will disagree with much about I say, that is okay, everyone has their opinion for there is no right or wrong only my way and 'your' way.
I did enjoy reading Neo's story, I like to hear whether it is successful or crash and burn

[Rubicon]

Aloe was right to point out that if you show up in a 2K suit and spend $500 on dinner than the girl is probably going to think that you are a multi millionaire, so what's 2K for cosmetics??  You reap what you sow.  Give false impressions and attract the wrong type of attention.

It was an enjoyable adventure blog to read but not the way 99% of men should behave.

It was indeed a very risky proposition!!

[LAman]

I did not go on one hundred dates, but not one of the women that I met ever asked me to go shopping. We simply did the usual first date stuff: cafe or restaurant. All of the woman that I met would have had too much pride to take a guy out shopping on the first date in the hopes that he will buy them something. Where are you meeting these women? Perhaps it is time, as Faux Pas and David say, to start looking at other venues.

I guess neo could not make that statement or even me....maybe nobody else has ever been asked???
 
Misha, who ever said shopping was on first date? If that happened on first date there would not be a second!!! Since you mentioned it Misha, girls were from free personals, mamba, elenas, anastasia, globaladies, even girls met IN city.........other venues??????
 
I guess neo could not make that statement or even me
 

[Rubicon]

First read my thread HRB/AWEB versus two legitimate agencies.  know the risks going in.

That said, sometimes you choose the lady and not the agency.  If the lady is 25 or above, preferably close to 30 and above, and perhaps not from Odessa, you have a very good chance to get her contact info and get her out of the agency clutches PRIOR to wasting your money going over there.

Simply write to her 3 to 5 times ($7.00 for each letter or less).  Than place a conference call to her using AnastasiaDate translators.  The cost of the call is only $39 for ten minutes.  During the call ask her for her direct contact cell phone.  if she likes you she will give it to you, it's that easy.  After that call her directly and ask her for her email (I used a local friend fluent in Russian to assist me with the call).  Once again, if she likes you she will give you her email. 

One word of warning--during the conference call, listen to her voice very clearly.  call her once or twice directly and make sure it is the same voice.  memorize her voice. 

It's really that simple.  now you have extracted her from the evil clutches of Aweb and you can proceed.

I have the direct contact of one AWEB lady and she is in my top five prospects for my next visit.  Remember that ladies age 27 and up are not getting so many letters and are much more likely to be REAL women wanting a REAL relationship.

[Misha]

Misha, who ever said shopping was on first date? If that happened on first date there would not be a second!!! Since you mentioned it Misha, girls were from free personals, mamba, elenas, anastasia, globaladies, even girls met IN city.........other venues??????

Then, my only explanation is that you are attracted to a certain type of woman who is prone to behaving in a certain way....

[Patagonie]

I did enjoy reading your story Neo.
If i bring my two cents, with absolutely no offence,
i think the turn had happened when you went to the restaurant.
You gave her too much wrong informations totally incompatible with your goal.

Give her an expansive gift.
Let her go to an expansive restaurant.
Be dressed with a 2k suit.

How can this chick understand that you are different from usual $$$$$$$$ crowd ? How can she guess ?

When you invite her for shopping, i'm sure that she was not indifferent to you, i cannot say too that she really likes you because i don't have enough informations to believe it from your post.
But when you smashed her in the shop, asking to give back a lot of the make up i'm pretty sure that she was not indifferent to you because, really, if i had been a women, after such treatment normally you would never see me again.

In my opinion the turning point is this restaurant, you lost (perhaps) all your chances to root out this women from the $$$$$$$$$ crownd, by playing with her with in the same manner as the usual one.
Ok i know speaking is not acting and sometimes it's not easy, more easy to say "you better did...."
My two cents, but really well done ! i mean it's courageous and always positive to have the balls to attempt what you tried.

Pat


   

[Boethius]

I disagree with you, Patagonie.  The shopping trip showed her true character.

You can't "lose" a woman over a dinner.  She was not interested in a relationship with a foreigner at all.

[Patagonie]

I disagree with you, Patagonie.  The shopping trip showed her true character.

You can't "lose" a woman over a dinner.  She was not interested in a relationship with a foreigner at all.

I would just say : IF there is a chance, only one, to pick up this girl from her usual way (stay in the crowded $$$$$) (doesn't mean she was ready at all to get married, to get married with a foreigner --> to be serious), he missed it at this moment.

[JohnDearGreen]

She was not interested in a relationship with a foreigner at all.

It is possible the interpreter was trying to tell him that after date #1. 

We went outside and parted company, I walked back towards my apartment with the interpreter who lived in the same direction, she indicated she thought I would probably be quite successful finding a girl there because I work internationally and could choose to base out of Odessa as well as any other country it would appeal to girls who may want a foreign husband but not particuarly want to leave their family and friends to go to another country. I parted company with the terp and thanked her for her efforts and headed back to the apartment.

But rule #1 - never trust the interpreter to make that decision.  The agency can make more money by getting him to chase a few other ladies (and keeping a good looking one on their available list).