Russia is at it again!

[wxman]

If Mexico (actually Cuba might be better) were launching mortars into San Diego, I don't think anyone would have a problem if we crossed the border.

A true comparison of this situation is if the US was launching mortars into Texas and Mexico crossed into Texas to say they are protecting Mexicans in Texas.

[BC]

A true comparison of this situation is if the US was launching mortars into Texas and Mexico crossed into Texas to say they are protecting Mexicans in Texas.

Mexicans in Texas with US passports?.. you gotta be kidding.

[OlgaH]

"We want television screens in the West to be showing not only Russian tanks, and texts saying Russia is at war in South Ossetia and with Georgia, but also to be showing the suffering of the Ossetian people, the murdered elderly people and children, the destroyed towns of South Ossetia, and [regional capital] Tskhinvali. This would be an objective way of presenting the material," Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin told a RIA Novosti news conference.

"The Georgian side has named some nearby populated areas and towns, saying they are being bombed by the Russian Air Force. I take full responsibility in saying that the Russian side did not bomb any populated area," Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of the Russian Armed Forces General Staff, told a news briefing on Sunday.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080810/115936076.html

[wxman]

Mexicans in Texas with US passports?.. you gotta be kidding.

Mexicans in US with Mexican passports. Just like Russians in Georgia with Russian passports.

[Lit_1nce]

A true comparison of this situation is if the US was launching mortars into Texas and Mexico crossed into Texas to say they are protecting Mexicans in Texas.

I like it... but you have to have Texas as declaring themselves as independent (not too hard to imagine)... and you have to have the Texans launching mortars as well.

[wxman]

"The Georgian side has named some nearby populated areas and towns, saying they are being bombed by the Russian Air Force. I take full responsibility in saying that the Russian side did not bomb any populated area," Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of the Russian Armed Forces General Staff, told a news briefing on Sunday.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080810/115936076.html

Of course a Russian general is going to say that. Any time you have war, the only information military leaders give out is
dis-information.  You never want to tip your hand to the other side. So whenever a military leaders speaks during a time of war, just assume the opposite is true. Remember the Iraqi pr man Baghdad Bob, during the US invasion when he said the there were no Americans in Baghdad and that they had detroyed US forces outside of Baghdad? They were right outside of his hotel. There's no doubt in my mind that the Russian military is in Georgia. They have been in there from the start. Special forces have probably been in their for months.

[steviej]

A true comparison of this situation is if the US was launching mortars into Texas and Mexico crossed into Texas to say they are protecting Mexicans in Texas.

wxman .. I love it -yes! Now, no matter which way it was going -Mexico into Texas or US to rescue "Americans" in Mexico ... my question is:

Would Ronnie, or anyone in US, want/expect for RUSSIA to stick its big nose in, declaring that whatever the hell we're doing "will not stand!" and "This aggression must be halted" and "moral responsibility and strategic Russian interests"

I think if you look at it like that, you see the insanity of the US posturing at every party no matter the longitude or latitude.

[By the way, my pet project is for US to invade Canada. Now that would be worth doing! At least we'd get a hell of a lot of ground out of it !!  I want to ensurf the Canadians to work on the US "climate change" farms in the Canadian tundra!!  I'm serious !!  It's about the only military adventure I can think of where the US would actually get something out of it !! ]

[BC]

Stevie,

Annexing Mexico would be an excellent resolution.  There are plans (scenarios) for this in a few desk US Government desk drawers..  Like US officials stated when the Georgia situation escalated.. 'just gotta dust them off'..

[wxman]

wxman .. I love it -yes! Now, no matter which way it was going -Mexico into Texas or US to rescue "Americans" in Mexico ... my question is:

Would Ronnie, or anyone in US, want/expect for RUSSIA to stick its big nose in, declaring that whatever the hell we're doing "will not stand!" and "This aggression must be halted" and "moral responsibility and strategic Russian interests"

Russia did that with Iraq. Does it matter what the distance is from another country that makes it justifyable? Is invading another country justifyable if the border is within 100 miles but not justifyable if it's 1000 miles? An invasion is an invasion. Attacking another country and using liberation as an excuse, when everyone knows that is just a ruse. It didn't work in Iraq and it won't work in Georgia. Everyone can see through the lies. US invaded Iraq because of oil and to have a military presence next to Iran. Russia invaded Georgia to control the energy pipeline and prevent Georgia from entering NATO. Very simple.   But yet people are so gullible to actually believe their leaders when they stand up in front of a camera and say it was justified to prevent genocide. People are such fools to believe the propaganda.

And to actually believe that Russia did not have this planned out are even bigger fools. One just doesn't have everything in place, and just pop into Georgia at a moments notice. They were lying in wait for the perfect time. 

[wxman]

Economic sanctions are the best way to handle this. Boot Russia out of the G8, and make it again the G7. Deny WTO membership to Russia. Threaten to not attend the 2014 winter olympics.  Everyone pretty much agrees no one will stop Russia from taking over Georgia. But at least let Russia know there is a price for their actions. They will spend all that money on the Olympics. No major country attending would be humiliating for them.

[Ronnie]

In 2006 the president of South Ossetia said: "South Ossetia has never left the Russian Federation. We will aspire to the integration with the Russian Federation because it is only guarantor of reservation of Ossetians as a nation".

http://www.ossetia.ru/interview/eduard-kokoiti

_____________________________________________
Ronnie, my dear I think you are mistaken 

Mistaken about..what?  That the war is not about the breakaway regions?  How does your quote speak to that?

In fact, here's an opinion in themoscowtimes.com:  The writer makes a case that it's not about even Georgia.

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1016/42/369707.htm

You Putin apologists are starting to turn my stomach, frankly.  Do you not understand that these are Russian and Georgian boys and men dying every second? That Russian mothers and fathers with sons conscripted into the Putin's army are worrying themselves sick over this war?  All so the little big man in Moscow can show the world how tough he is.   

[wxman]

The best part of this is "In 2006 the president of South Ossetia said: "South Ossetia has never left the Russian Federation" Hard to be a president of a non existent country. Even Russia does not recognize South Ossetia as a nation. They officially recognize South Ossetia as part of Georgia. In fact they said that just a few days ago before this occurred. 

[Ronnie]

"We want television screens in the West to be showing not only Russian tanks, and texts saying Russia is at war in South Ossetia and with Georgia, but also to be showing the suffering of the Ossetian people, the murdered elderly people and children, the destroyed towns of South Ossetia, and [regional capital] Tskhinvali. This would be an objective way of presenting the material," Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin told a RIA Novosti news conference.

"The Georgian side has named some nearby populated areas and towns, saying they are being bombed by the Russian Air Force. I take full responsibility in saying that the Russian side did not bomb any populated area," Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of the Russian Armed Forces General Staff, told a news briefing on Sunday.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080810/115936076.html

Of course.  Ask France's foreign minister who is there seeing for himself that that Nogovitsyn is lying. The Kremlin propaganda machine will say that Georgia bombed itself and the Russian people will believe it.  It's utterly pathetic.

[wxman]

I think Russia has a major image problem on their hands. When you can count on one hand your friends, and that list contains Venezuela, Cuba, Iran and North Korea, you know you have a big problem.  

[Ronnie]

The Russian people elected Putin, full knowing he was not a reformer but a restorer.  Restorer of the cold war and totalitarian government.  He has not dissappointed them.  With Putin, as with Stalin, you are either a vassal or an enemy.  This is why Russia has no friends.

[Blues Fairy]

You Putin apologists are starting to turn my stomach, frankly.  Do you not understand that these are Russian and Georgian boys and men dying every second? That Russian mothers and fathers with sons conscripted into the Putin's army are worrying themselves sick over this war?  As so the little big man in Moscow can show the world how tough he is. 

Nobody here is Putin's apologist in case you haven't noticed, but some, unlike you, try to figure out the truth without throwing around labels and conspiracy/world domination theories.  It's you with your brainwashed one-track mind that turns my stomach.  You select the personification of absolute evil and build all your argument around it, using comparisons to Hitler, Napoleon etc.  Once again, look closely at the Georgian little big man and find five differences with the portrait you are painting.  

[Ronnie]

Your're forgetting one thing BF, unlike you, I don't have an ethnic or cultural or political dog in this fight.  I spent two hours last night watching the Russia Today broadcasts going back 4 months on youtube.com  I've listened to the Russian excuses and pretenses and they have been long constructed and not well disguised.  Well enough, however for a people who can't, even for 5 minutes, step outside their Russian pride.  Even Solzhenitsyn was unable to do it.

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1016/42/369634.htm

I have studied Putin and if I pass on before he does, the first thing I want to do is reserve a ticket to be in the gallery at his final judgment.

[Blues Fairy]

Your're forgetting one thing BF, unlike you, I don't have an ethnic or cultural or political dog in this fight.  I spent two hours last night watching the Russia Today broadcasts going back 4 months on youtube.com  I've listened to the Russian excuses and pretenses and they have been long constructed and not well disguised.  Well enough, however for a people who can't, even for 5 minutes, step outside their Russian pride.  Even Solzhenitsyn was unable to do it.

Ronnie, don't measure others according to your own scale.  I have long ceased having ethnic or cultural biases and in many threads here, argued consistently against Russia where Russia was positively wrong.  The fact that you attribute my opposing views (i.e. my unwillingness to qualify Russia as an Absolute Villain) to my cultural bias shows that it's you who cannot step out of your cultural biases. 

[OlgaH]

Ronnie,

same things I can say about American propaganda that is too one sided and hides more than half of the truth 

As wxman said "Very simple"

Georgia violated the agreements and more over Georgia officially declared a war against South Ossetia (http://www.vz.ru/news/2008/8/8/194362.html). By August 2008 more than 70% of the South Ossetia citizens had Russian citizenship. The war is not the armed conflicts, there are other rules. 

The phrase by wxman "to prevent genocide" is very correct. In 2007 the population of South Ossetia was about 70 thousand. During the attack of Tskhinvali by Georgian army South Ossetia lost about 2000 of civilians for two days of war. It seems that West media doesn't want to talk about it. Why? I guess because NATO is not interested in a destiny of Ossetians, but only in the potential territory of NATO. 

   

[Ronnie]

Ronnie,

same things I can say about American propaganda that is too one sided and hides more than half of the truth 

As wxman said "Very simple"

Georgia violated the agreements and more over Georgia officially declared a war against South Ossetia (http://www.vz.ru/news/2008/8/8/194362.html). By August 2008 more than 70% of the South Ossetia citizens had Russian citizenship. The war is not an armed conflicts, there are other rules. 

The phrase by wxman "to prevent genocide" is very correct. In 2007 the population of South Ossetia was about 70 thousand. During the attack of Tskhinvali by Georgian army South Ossetia lost about 2000 of civilians for two days of war. It seems that West media doesn't want to talk about it. Why? I guess because NATO is not interested in a destiny of Ossetians, but only in the potential territory of NATO. 

Yes, Olga.  I would seem that way to you.  You cannot conceive of the concept of journalism that is not propaganda.  For that, you get a pass. 

[Ronnie]

This just popped into my email box from a former advisor to Bill Clinton:


Russia's Invasion Same as Hitler's

Monday, August 11, 2008 11:44 AM

By: Dick Morris & Eileen McGann 
 
On Oct. 3, 1938, Adolf Hitler's armies marched into Sudetenland, a part of Czechoslovakia. Germany said it was responding to separatist demands from the large German population that lived there and that she was merely honoring their desire for reunion with Germany.


Hitler's tanks took over a vital part of an independent country that had largely rejected his overtures and allied itself with the West. Neither Britain nor France nor the United States did a thing to stop him.


On Aug. 7, 2008, Vladimir Putin's armies marched into South Ossetia, a part of Georgia. Russia said it was responding to separatist demands from the large Russian population that lived there and that she was merely honoring their desire for reunion with Russia.


Putin's tanks took over a vital part of an independent country that had largely rejected his overtures and allied itself with the West. Neither Britain nor France nor the United States did a thing to stop him.


Encouraged by his occupation of Sudetenland, Hitler continued his designs on Czechoslovakia itself and invaded the rest of the nation a few months later.


Will history continue to repeat itself?


Georgia is one of the two countries that have split off from the old Soviet Union and most firmly reached out to the West. Now Putin is testing whether the West will respond to an overt Russian military attack on a part of Georgia, doubtless paving the way for a full scale invasion, perhaps in the coming days. One immediate Russian move would be to use its newfound military leverage to force Georgia to give up Abkhazia, another province with a large Russian population.


Russia has encouraged migration by ethnic Russians into its satellite empire ever since Stalin's days and now is using the provinces with large Russian populations to foment discord in nations that lean to the West.


The United States and the European Union must not turn away at this crucial moment in history. The U.S. should take visible steps to bolster Georgia, including the dispatch of supplies, materials, and other manifestations of our determination not to let this nation be invaded.


Russia's goal in this imperialism is to intimidate any nation on its borders into rejecting overtures from the West and to try to prove that the West will offer no real protection against Russian military designs.


NATO should speed consideration of Georgia's application for admission and should extend its security umbrella to include the struggling democracy.


If the United States appeases Russia now, it will pay the same price British Prime Minister Nevelle Chamberlain paid in the 1930s. This invasion must not be allowed to stand or, at the very least, it must be contained to south Ossetia and not allowed to lap over into the rest of Georgia
 

[OlgaH]

You cannot conceive of the concept of journalism that is not propaganda. 

Ronnie, you are simply ill-informed about Georgia-South Ossetia events 

For that, you get a pass. 

I hope that one day the American media will let the president of South Ossetia to speak openly on TV and will show the destroyed Ossetian areas and interview with Ossetians. Then we can talk 

BTW where was the American journalism when the Georgia was firing on Tskhinvali? 

[Ronnie]

Ronnie, don't measure others according to your own scale.  I have long ceased having ethnic or cultural biases and in many threads here, argued consistently against Russia where Russia was positively wrong.  The fact that you attribute my opposing views (i.e. my unwillingness to qualify Russia as an Absolute Villain) to my cultural bias shows that it's you who cannot step out of your cultural biases. 

Putin is not Russia.  Putin is for Putin and for Putin only.  I'm sure you won't make that mistake again.  At least I hope. 

As to shedding your cultural biases, then I congratulate you.  That means we both see Georgians and Russians and Ukrainians, as being equal and the same as Moskovites, right?  No one better than the other.  Correct?   
 

[Ronnie]

Ronnie, you are simply ill-informed about Georgia-South Ossetia events 

For that, you get a pass. 

I hope that one day the American media will let the president of South Ossetia to speak openly on TV and will show the destroyed Ossetian areas and interview with Ossetians. Then we can talk 

BTW where was the American journalism when the Georgia was firing on Tskhinvali? 

Olga, I'm sorry you cannot see past South Ossetia.  It's not about them or that territory or their claim of independence from Georgia or from Russia or from the moon.  Are you refuting the fact that Tskhinvali is a city within the political boundaries of Georgia?  You seem to be but, again I digress from my point.  It ain't about any of those things.   I can only hope that your opinion will change when you see what Putin is really up to.  The whole world will know the man for what he really is very soon.

[OlgaH]

Are you refuting the fact that Tskhinvali is a city within the political boundaries of Georgia? 

I was talking about Tskhinvali as a capital of South Ossetia that declared its independence from Georgia 

Do you think Georgia is so crazy to fire on her own cities and kill her own citizens? 

On Aug. 7, 2008, Vladimir Putin's armies marched into South Ossetia

Sorry if I will spoil your fantasy or fantasy of somebody else, but the Russian army already has been on the territory of South Ossetia according to the Dagomyss agreement.

I will not spoil your fantasy that is injected by the opposite propaganda any more

I hope that one day the American media will let the president of South Ossetia to speak openly on TV and will show the destroyed Ossetian areas and interview with Ossetians. Then we can talk