Using a guide in Ukraine? Be careful!

[Jooky]

It's all about image nothing else. Else how did PC outsell Mac's or VHS beat Betamax.

Two cases of a single (Mac) or limited manufacturer (Beta) going up against multiple competing manufacturers (PC, VHS). Basic stuff.

Compaq outsold most other PCs for a while because of its reputation for quality customer service, despite a higher price tag. Aren't you an aspiring Marketing Officer? I hope you don't think the game industry relies solely on image. It doesn't.

Some businesses rely on price, some on product, some on image, some on service, and so on.

Guess what a service oriented business such as a guide relies on. Hmmm... Let me think...

[Leslie]

Well I read most of this thread today after returning from a very hectic long weekend in Ukraine.

It is difficult to summarize but there was no criminal/fraud element anywhere in this.  Nothing that you could complain to the militsia about.  When I was a newcomer I had personal experience of using a criminal as a guide.  A very different situation.

Kuna’s complaints hinge around his service expectations and Pavel’s failure to meet them. 

It takes a long while to accustom yourself to doing business in another culture.  Even though I now travel extensively on my own in Ukraine and have no need of guides or travel arrangers.  I still know my limitations.  I am under no illusions that I could  negotiate significant business deals there…

If you expect the standards of service which apply in your own country you are going to be disappointed.  Here is an “off the wall” example –

 If I tip a barmaid in Auckland New Zealand $5 with every drink she will be surprised/suspicious of my motivations.  If I don’t tip like this in a bar on the upper west side of NYC I probably won’t get a second drink. 

Tipping is not customary in NZ.  Employers are expected to pay decent wages and staff don’t ingratiate themselves for tips.  In NYC the bar tender pays the owner hourly rent and nearly all the income is from tips…

In Ukraine you are not just paying the guide by the hour.  It is customary for the guide to take a percentage on ALL the services arranged.  Apartment rental, taxi fares etc.  Some guides charge a low hourly rate but are rapacious on the “mark ups” Others charge a higher hourly rate but take fewer “perks”  Some guides (women in particular) will take you (and your date)  to fancy restaurants, eat expensively and expect you to pay.  I have had guys expect me to pay them to get drunk! 

“Plucking the white bird” is seen as clever in Ukraine.  People there tend to take advantage until you set limits.  The bottom line is that you are not “in thrall” to a particular guide. (Though many inexperienced guys may feel so)  They are easy to find and replace.  You are paying.  Business is business.  If you are unhappy with the services provided.  Fire the guide!  A new one is just a mobile phone call away..

You have responsibilities as a customer. If you change the plans at short notice it is down to you to pay the cost.  Oh I have decided to stay in Dnepr.  Do I still have to pay for the apartment in Kiev.  Yes, of course you do.  A man takes responsibility for the consequences of his decisions.  I have heard lots of stories of guys acting like spoilt children…

There is no “ qualification”  in  Ukraine for an MOB guide.  Maybe this is a business opportunity for you Dan?  An “RWD Certified Guide” LOL !

You tend to get what you pay for.  Many of the in interpreters/guides employed by the agencies are young (mostly female) students.  They should cost less than $10 an hour.  The agency will certainly mark up everything they provide for you (100% mark up is quite normal on apartment rental!).  Don’t expect useful advice from a student! Guides like Pavel and Stirlitz charge more per hour but are certainly less rapacious in other respects. They are also experienced in this business and their advice is worth listening to.   If you want an internationally certified translator think $100 per hour – Oh and such people will not hang around disco bars with you.  They don’t do MOB work…

The best advice I can offer is to become self sufficient as soon  as possible.  Stop being a tourist.  Learn Russian.  Try to understand the culture.  After all you are looking to marry an FSU woman!

[Admin]

Well I read most of this thread today after returning from a very hectic long weekend in Ukraine.

It is difficult to summarize but there was no criminal/fraud element anywhere in this.  Nothing that you could complain to the militsia about.  When I was a newcomer I had personal experience of using a criminal as a guide.  A very different situation.

Kuna’s complaints hinge around his service expectations and Pavel’s failure to meet them. 

It takes a long while to accustom yourself to doing business in another culture.  Even though I now travel extensively on my own in Ukraine and have no need of guides or travel arrangers.  I still know my limitations.  I am under no illusions that I could  negotiate significant business deals there…

If you expect the standards of service which apply in your own country you are going to be disappointed.  Here is an “off the wall” example –

 If I tip a barmaid in Auckland New Zealand $5 with every drink she will be surprised/suspicious of my motivations.  If I don’t tip like this in a bar on the upper west side of NYC I probably won’t get a second drink. 

Tipping is not customary in NZ.  Employers are expected to pay decent wages and staff don’t ingratiate themselves for tips.  In NYC the bar tender pays the owner hourly rent and nearly all the income is from tips…

In Ukraine you are not just paying the guide by the hour.  It is customary for the guide to take a percentage on ALL the services arranged.  Apartment rental, taxi fares etc.  Some guides charge a low hourly rate but are rapacious on the “mark ups” Others charge a higher hourly rate but take fewer “perks”  Some guides (women in particular) will take you (and your date)  to fancy restaurants, eat expensively and expect you to pay.  I have had guys expect me to pay them to get drunk! 

“Plucking the white bird” is seen as clever in Ukraine.  People there tend to take advantage until you set limits.  The bottom line is that you are not “in thrall” to a particular guide. (Though many inexperienced guys may feel so)  They are easy to find and replace.  You are paying.  Business is business.  If you are unhappy with the services provided.  Fire the guide!  A new one is just a mobile phone call away..

You have responsibilities as a customer. If you change the plans at short notice it is down to you to pay the cost.  Oh I have decided to stay in Dnepr.  Do I still have to pay for the apartment in Kiev.  Yes, of course you do.  A man takes responsibility for the consequences of his decisions.  I have heard lots of stories of guys acting like spoilt children…

There is no “ qualification”  in  Ukraine for an MOB guide.  Maybe this is a business opportunity for you Dan?  An “RWD Certified Guide” LOL !

You tend to get what you pay for.  Many of the in interpreters/guides employed by the agencies are young (mostly female) students.  They should cost less than $10 an hour.  The agency will certainly mark up everything they provide for you (100% mark up is quite normal on apartment rental!).  Don’t expect useful advice from a student! Guides like Pavel and Stirlitz charge more per hour but are certainly less rapacious in other respects. They are also experienced in this business and their advice is worth listening to.   If you want an internationally certified translator think $100 per hour – Oh and such people will not hang around disco bars with you.  They don’t do MOB work…

The best advice I can offer is to become self sufficient as soon  as possible.  Stop being a tourist.  Learn Russian.  Try to understand the culture.  After all you are looking to marry an FSU woman!

Excellent points all.

I know enough Russian language to make my way around pretty well - however, when I scheduled a meeting with the Deputy Minister of Energy, and when UNIAN interviewed me, I took along a trusted associate who was trained as a linguist in the Soviet Military. He is a professional translator in English and Chinese, and his translation abilities are impressive, indeed.

When the need is less critical, a college kid trying to improve their English will work out just fine - for a much lower fee.

As for the "RWD Certified Translator" - you are on to something Leslie - just a slightly different tack. It'll be announced soon.

- Dan

[Stirlitz]

Excellent points all.

Yep.

[Shadow]

I have quickly scanned the report and found nothing that I find strange or unusual.
Pavel and others are in a business providing service. As such they do try to build a trust relationship. Just as Americans ask 'Hi how are you' without really being interested in how the person is, they will use a 'friendship' angle without building friendship with every customer.
If you are needing their service, due to lack of confidence in getting what you want yourself, you must expect to pay for it. The amount you pay will be stiff compare to local salaries, but in return you get their effort. When you decide to rely on your own communication skills, or those of the woman you are meeting instead, you might pay much less for the same. Or you might pay even more due to finding a bad apple. the coice is the travellers to make.
The fear of scam is often bigger as the reality. Most people are honest and will try to help out, even if they have trouble to communicate with you.
I am sure that the professional guides have saved their clients money in a number of cases. I am also sure that the living they make off this is better as the average Ukrainian, and that seen from the eyes of the women the men are paying incredible amounts of money.
What need to be is being clear. In Kuna's report I read that several times the price was different from what was agreed previously. There for such thing should always be agreed in writing, to avoid 'misunderstandings'.

I will finish by a small anecdote, showing these things are universal. A number of years ago we took a bus tour to Vienna. The first week we hada a driver that was a guy we could bond with. He arranged opera tickets, and we paid a fair price. The second week we had a bus driver who was extremely energetic and trying to be friendly. He took us to his 'friend' who could arrange the best tickets. As we paid a lot more than the week before, we decided to check the cash register. And yes, we were charged doulble price. Of course the bus driver denied this, and we took it as compleint to the organization. While we never heard back, after we heard from the first weeks driver that the guy was taken off the 'gold tour' as it was called.  All drivers made some extra cash from guiding their guests around bus the one being a big friend was the greediest.....

[Stirlitz]

There for such thing should always be agreed in writing, to avoid 'misunderstandings'.

Yes, it is a good idea, and usually everything is emailed so there is always reference in case you forget what you were quoted. Actually it was done in writing in this case too but Kuna chose to ignore my request to produce the e-mail from Pavel quoting $80 for the Cherkassy trip and just calls me 'boofhead' instead. I do not believe this e-mail exists though, so no wonder.

[Son of Clyde]

I am thinking contracts are not very common in Ukraine. In the US there are contracts for many services and usually fine print that protects the provider. Having a legal and binding contract is not a bad idea.

[Admin]

I am thinking contracts are not very common in Ukraine. In the US there are contracts for many services and usually fine print that protects the provider. Having a legal and binding contract is not a bad idea.

"legal and binding" is one thing - 'enforcement' is the other.

Just having a well-written contract does little when a serious dispute arises. The enforcement mechanisms are what count then - and few will have the resources to enforce the contracts IMO.

Still, having a solid contract is a good first step.

- Dan

Disclaimer: I am NOT an attorney and my comments are merely the opinions of a layperson 

[Shadow]

I guess that after reading the report about a Russian Teacher winning the case that Microsoft started, it is probably clear that foreigners will have little chance to enforce any contract, unless they know the local ways in Russia and Ukraine.

And it has come to my knowledge that the moment you are going to look up any contract for possibliities of enforcement, all parties involved have already lost in some way.

[Jack]

If some of you guys are thinking about creating an interpreters/guides contract for Russian, Ukraine, FSU individuals, I think your wasting your time. Some individuals might sign such but I think the vast majority would not.

Why you might ask?

The paper trail. If an interpreter signs a contract that he is working this week, or these days, for X amount of money, now their is a paper trail. Now their is proof that this individual has been paid for providing a service and once this happens, ...next person to call or knock on the door might be,..... the tax police.  Now every interpreter, guide, translator I know of is paid cash, with no paper trail, as they prefer.

Let Yuri sign such a contract with Mr. Jones. Mr. Jones get's pissed at the services he received and he complains to some Ukraine or Russian authority, after all he has a contract saying he was going to be given these services, and Jones feels he did not receive these services, now he can complain to a local authority and he can prove he paid this person this money.  Whoaaaa says the tax police, we have not been paid any taxes from this Yuri.

Many of the local interpreters/guides (and flat owners) will feel this way, that is, no paper trail please.

If you look at what has happened to create this thread about one individual warning others about guide service in Ukraine. If this person had a contract I can almost assure you, based on the communications I have exchanged with this individual, he would have voiced his displeasure with any local authority who would have listened to him.  And once a contract was shown, Yuri would have to do some explaining to the tax police.  I think for those of you who do not work in Ukraine you do not know the power that the tax police has or the fear they cause.

[Stirlitz]

As far as I am concerned, Pavel is paying his taxes and all of his papers are in order so he would not have to be afraid of that. He is a very careful and lawful guy.

[Michelangelo]

As for the "RWD Certified Translator" - you are on to something Leslie - just a slightly different tack. It'll be announced soon.

- Dan

If some of you guys are thinking about creating an interpreters/guides contract for Russian, Ukraine, FSU individuals, I think your wasting your time.

Actually, ~ I bet Dan has some good ideas...can't wait to see his concept.

[Shadow]

As far as I am concerned, Pavel is paying his taxes and all of his papers are in order so he would not have to be afraid of that. He is a very careful and lawful guy.

I am sure that Pavel pyas his taxes as by the paperwork he deliers to the authorities like every businessman in Ukraine

[Kuna]

HAHAHAHA... 

Shadow, are you saying I should ask for receipts?   

Kuna

[ScottinCrimea]

As I have heard many times before and seen from experience here, the key to doing business in Ukraine is CONTACTS, not CONTRACTS.  You'll have a difficult time enforcing a contract here, but if someone screws someone who was referred to him by a friend, t hey are gong to hear about it.  Much of what my wife and I have been able to accomplish here is because of contacts we have in the government, the police, with different businesses, etc.  without such contacts, it's often difficult to get something done.  For example, we were having trouble getting approval for the gas line to some apartments we are refurbishing.  All it took was one phone call from our friend who is the Crimean Minister of Economics, and it was a done deal.

[Stirlitz]

That’s right. I had a client who went to Harkov and I referred him to a guide there. When he left he owed her $100 and she complained to me about it. I gave him a hard time over e-mail and finally he wired her his debt, and everybody was happy.

[Leslie]

Quite honestly I am with Jack and Dan on this issue. Written contracts have no place in mediating your relationship with a guide or ordering other services like short term apartment rental.  Quite simply this business in does not work in this way in Ukraine and Russia.

There is a golden rule. “Do not pay for services until you are satisfied”

As an example we rented an apartment for a month from the owner last year.  My wife looked the apartment over when we arrived and told the owner we would go elsewhere unless things were “fixed”.  We moved in without paying a single kopek.  Tasha gave the owner a list.  A very long list.  A team of cleaners arrived and left exhausted two days later.  A succession of repair men called.  By the end of the first week the apartment gleamed and everything worked.  Oh and it was kept that way. Tasha only paid the woman at the end of our stay and she refused to pay for the first week!

If we had paid up front nothing would have been done.  The water heater could break down and the owner would merely give excuses.  Once you have paid you never get your money back (well almost never!).  So make sure you owe money to anyone who is working for you.  The threat of being fired and not paid is usually enough to keep these people on their toes!  Sometimes they will make all sorts of ludicrous threats to try and force you to pay.  Glacial indifference is the way to proceed.  Involve the militsia (and maybe pay them!) 

I never forgot the taxi driver who tried to cheat me big time on a trip to the rail station.  I just started shouting thief ! Police! Police! As the disheveled policemen started over towards us you should have seen this taxi driver move.  Like he was doing a get away from a bank robbery.  Of course I gave the “officer” 10 Hrivna for some vodka to warm himself and he promised to catch the “criminal” LOL!!

Scott is absolutely correct.  Who you know is all that matters.  There is no value in being “right”   Enforcement depends on who you can contact and get on your side.  Ukraine is a society where nearly everything is illegal but almost anything is possible…

[Son of Clyde]

Consider the alternative, doing it all on your own.
As long as the guide delivers what is promised I am happy.
I don't ask for a five star hotel and limo, just a comfortable flat and some transportation from place to place.

[KenC]

Just a few comments as this thread winds down.

A written contract for a guide sounds ridiculous to me.  Overkill to the max. If the guide isn't giving you the service you desire, get rid of him and find another, or better yet, find another and then fire him.

On employees being friends-As long as there is a payment involved, no employee is your friend.  Period.

I have employed littererally thousands of people over the last 27 years in business.  Some I have or had become personally very close to.  I have had them at my home, met with them socially and at times the relationships seemingly crossed over to personal.  But there is not one time in my experience that when the payment stopped the relationship continued.  The tie that binds you with "friendly" employees is their paycheck, don't ever forget it.  A good manager will always remember that it is the performance of the employee that matters, not how proficient the employee is at being friendly.
KenC

[catzenmouse]

not how proficient the employee is at being friendly.

These are called politicians regardless of what their position is.

Leslie & KenC,

 Both very good posts!

 Western thinking cannot be used with any consistency regarding the FSU. Perhaps it will work well in this or that situation but this is not the West. This IS the FSU. If you cannot adjust to how things are done then you either need to go home or do some serious rethinking of how you are going about things.

Ken

[jb]

I have employed littererally thousands of people over the last 27 years in business.  Some I have or had become personally very close to.  I have had them at my home, met with them socially and at times the relationships seemingly crossed over to personal.  But there is not one time in my experience that when the payment stopped the relationship continued.  The tie that binds you with "friendly" employees is their paycheck, don't ever forget it.  A good manager will always remember that it is the performance of the employee that matters, not how proficient the employee is at being friendly.

Except that I have not employed thousands, only by the hundreds, this exactly reflects my experience.

[Jack]

I think in my business career I have also employed hundreds, not thousands.

And the single most difficult aspect of owning your own business is firing people. I have had many people who were nice and friendly.  It is always difficult when one has to fire a nice and friendly guy.

But I run a business where my clients are the boss.

If I don't perform they will fire me. As I mentioned if I have a flat in our inventory that has received two complaints, I get rid of it, don't need it even if 30 other guys liked it.  The same with interpreters. If I have four clients over a few months time period complain loudly about the performance and charges of an individual, and after meeting with the individual and finding out everything the clients complained about was true, I have no option but to fire this person no matter how friendly and nice he was, no matter if 10 other clients who I respect liked him.  There is a chance I lost four good clients, I can't take the chance of losing more.

[KenC]

Funny that you mention firing employees, Jack.  I just fired a guy that worked for me for 5 years on Wednesday.  He was a highly skilled guy and did excellent work.  But as I had him doing work at my own home for the last week, I could see that he had developed a bad attitude and was extremely slow in his performance.  Over the week he has been at my home, he was late a few times and seemed to think he could make his own hours.  He repeatedly disregarded my specific instructions and generally thought he was irreplaceable.  If he can show such disrespect to me, the guy that is paying him, what must he be doing to my customers?  No matter how difficult it is to replace an employee, one must never let that stop him from firing an employee for cause.  Taking such actions, also makes the rest of the troops take notice that no one is safe enough to remain in their position without meeting my standards.
KenC

[Kuna]

From my experience... Even if an individual is referred to you as a reliable guide in Ukraine, always be aware that the guide will act out of necessity rather than the reasonable commercial standards you'll accept at home.

Contracts as we know them are futile because the local guides will never offer them! It's not in their interst to document the transaction.

The guides will warn you about being scammed by taxi drivers (and others), but the guides have other motivs in mind!

I was wrong on my trip.  I accept responsibility for some of my actions!

I assumed that the promises I was made would be upheld (best price etc). Eventually I worked out that best price actually meant "Best price I will give you at the time".  

A guide will charge you to the extent that is available at that moment, just like any other service provider. (Stirlitz, a guide, said this earlier in this thread)

I don't have a gripe about the extra money it cost me during my trip because I saved bundles by waking up early (to a factor of 10 X in my estimations) but I do have a problem with broken promises. I paid an upfront fee for a service that would "protect me" and therefore assumed that I would be protected against the rip-offs in the local market).

The thing I learnt from my first trip to Ukraine was that YOU DON'T NEED A GUIDE unless you need the comfort of feeling like someone is "there for you".  If you're experienced and sensible you can find your own way.  Nothing I accessed was unavailable through other mediums, and no advantage was gained by engaging a guide, price and service included!

You may choose your own path, but I think that most people that have some travel experience under their belt, and if they seek advice from RWD members, will be better off if they don't engage a guide.

In this thread we've read lots of accounts of the noble gestures of a particular guide but when I read those accounts I see little value I could have gained over and above the travel insurance I paid for before leaving home.

Is a guide acting in your best interests?  No, I don't think so.  Stirlitz has explained the guides motive pretty well.  Can you have a safe trip to Ukraine without a guide?  Yes absolutely, if you're not irresponsible and you realise everyone you meet after landing is after the same thing.

The best advice you'll get is from the members of RWD who give you direct information about apartments, land travel, behaviour and activities they've personally under taken.

Guides are like taxi drivers... they don't have a standard charge and they will exploit what is available at the time.

Others had good experiences... I didn't.  I'm not the only one but I'm one of the few who are prepared to weather the criticism that is inevitable by criticising someone that a few people consider as a "friend".

We (the clients) have certain goals in mind (Marriage).  They are not the goals the guides have in mind (money).

Be prudent about giving away your trust and don't assume everything you see is a "cultural difference".

This journey is exciting and offers big rewards...  it also presents some risks that can be avoided.

Best of luck to all those that choose either path!

Kuna

[jb]

Kuna,

The problem I have with these posts you and others have made is that we all know the guide is providing a service for money.   It's his living, and everyone doing something for a living is deserving of his pay if he does that job well.

With that said and understood, if a guide, in this case Pavel, says he will work for a flat hourly rate, (agreed upon in advance) and as part of "this paid for service", claims to get you other services at a best rate, i.e., taxi, apartments, and such,,, warns you about scammers and claims to be protecting you from scammers.  Then proceeds not to act in your best interests, overcharging you for these services and taking a cut on each deal, then he is himself a scammer.  If he is getting a kick back from the apartment landlord, taxi drivers, etc., then he is stealing from you. A person who does this to a client, to whom he has promised to protect from the evils of travel in the Ukraine, deserves neither his pay, your trust, nor your friendship.  To anyone who cannot understand this simple concept, you should not venture to travel outside your own backyard, for you are as a lamb to slaughter.  To my simple mind you were dealing with a clever thief, pure and simple.  Why do you think Jack fired him?

I have never used a guide in my travels, I prefer to tough it out myself, I studied the language before I went, and I'm a fairly independant type who doesn't need a hand holder.  I think you, Kuna, will forego the guide from now on.